'Spriting School': Good or Bad Idea?

[SassySnivy]

I'm just posting this here as being open for discussion.

I've really been thinking about conjuring a "spriting school" or "pixel academy" program. I know, I know; I can't get enough of pixels. I just can't! After making that "encyclopedia" thread, I thought it wouldn't be too bad of an idea to think about following up on that.

But nonetheless, I've really been contemplating it. However, before I come up with a system I'd like to see what you guys think about the concept itself and/or mechanics relating to the concept.
This could also possibly branch out to other art forms as well. And since we all are aware that I cannot stick to one place for a very prolonged time period, I would make the system so that it would be clear, and if need-be then someone else could take over if they wanted to.

However, my main concern is that our pixel art community is just not developed enough yet. Therefore, this could turn out to be a fair success and attract a decent number of people, or just totally bomb.

If I were to make this, it could go one of many ways; I was thinking more of a system in which it works like an actual school: you start out as a certain rank / grade level (freshman, for example), and have certain prerequisites that you need to take in order to get to the next rank. Upon gaining this next rank, you would obtain access to more course types and the like. Additionally, there could be extra "filler" courses for each rank.

The type of system I'm thinking of also doesn't really revolve around recoloring, editing, different types of edits and the like. I was thinking more along the lines of starting anew: starting with something such as color theory and working up from there to more advanced pixel art techniques.

I'm sorry if this post isn't clear in certain spots. I had a really long day. Nonetheless, I would like to see what everyone thinks about it, good or bad. :>

[Pokemon Trainer Sarah]

I think it sounds like a good idea! I know BisharpBlade had mentioned a sprite school. Maybe you guys could work together!

[SassySnivy]

Thank you. Ah! I forgot to mention...if you are already relatively experienced, you wouldn't be forced to start from the beginning if you don't want to. Instead, the user could take an entrance exam of sorts.

I'm just having some troubles coming up with how classes would work. I'd like for them all to be public and in the forums, so users can learn from other users strengths and weaknesses. I think the reason the pe2k one died after a while was because it was a private mentor program. By outside users not being able to see any progress and/or organization going on, outsider may not have been drawn in. I was wanting to make a thread for each lesson, but sadly that requires many threads cluttering the pixel art sub forum. I would just think it would be best for users to learn at their own pace and observe a sense of organization and harmony, not clutter. Each thread would revolve around one concept, and everyone would be instructed to create something different based on their skill and experience level. I think I could make an entrance quiz mandatory, perhaps: though all it would consist of is for the user to tell and show how much experience they have or haven't. That way, each lesson can tailor more to individual users, reflected by the different assignments given.

[Pokemon Trainer Sarah]

I kind of like the idea of having a different thread for each lesson, actually. People could move through the threads (lessons) at their own pace (or pick and choose) and then post their results in there as well. And maybe the teachers/mentors could then post individual feedback/answer questions in the thread and also decide when a user "passed" that thread (lesson) by posting a high enough quality artwork. (They could receive a profile token or something?) That way everyone can see the results and it could be a public thing. Don't worry about the clutter if that's the best way to run it. We can always sort something out with the board organisation if it takes off. :)
Speed-X

[SassySnivy]

Yes, that was the intention; learning at your own pace! People will likely be able to pick and choose, but as I may have stated before: some classes require prerequisites; mainly the extra, filler classes. The "core" courses will be categorized by rank and will be required to advance to the next rank at all. Any filler class would be able to be taken at any rank so long as prerequisites are met.

I thought about this a little more a little while ago: I mentioned that the challenges would tailor to individuals. I think just for the sake of consistency, each lesson will have one or two default challenges; that way, the mentor can see where to head from there. I was definitely hoping to get more mentors--at least two others, perhaps--but only the head mentor(s) can approve of a student passing a course. I think that way perhaps things can be more consistent. But otherwise, everything you mentioned hit the proverbial nail right on the head!

I never thought of using a profile token. That would actually be pretty neat.

Yeah, and you have a point: clutter probably shouldn't be worried about at the beginning. In actuality I'm thinking about only having the first rank's lesson plan finished before starting to see if it hits off...I'm just a little concerned that if it does, if I'll be able to finish the future lesson plans. At least, hypothetically speaking.

Also, I really appreciate your feedback and helping with the brainstorming, Sarah. :3c Thank you very much!

Rank 1
-------------
Core Courses:
-Color Theory I (Overview, basic Hue shifting, choosing colors)
-Shading I (Basic forms)
-Line art I
-Perspective I
-General Anatomy I

Filler Courses:
-Isometric I
-Objects I
-
-

--------------------------

Rank 2
-------------
Core Courses:
-Shading II (Intermediate forms, different light sources)
-Pixel Overs and Traces
-Perspective I
-Dithering
-Common Problems

Filler Courses:
-Animation I
-Pokemon Style I (Gameboy)
-Objects II
-

--------------------------

Rank 3
-------------
Core Courses:
-Shading III
-Blocking
-Color Theory II (conservation, advanced hue-shifting)
-Anti-Aliasing
-Texturing I

Filler Courses:
-Tiles I
-RPG Characters I
-Pokemon Style II (Gameboy Color)
-Scenery I


--------------------------

Rank 4
-------------
Core Courses:
-
-
-
-


Filler Courses:
-Portraits
-
-
-






-------------------------------------------------------






Graduate Classes

Rank 1

[Pokeman]

I would actually be willing to participate in this, because although I have pretty good skills at pokemon spriting, I would love to become even better! Which is why I voted for yes.

[SassySnivy]

Thank you! I suppose I'll use this thread to post the results of my brainstorming; if anyone wants to contribute ideas, please don't hesitate! Plus, I'd like to keep a post flow because it would be great if plenty of people could see this. I've figured out and straightened up the curriculum for Freshman / Rank 1 Students; take a look, if you will!

Rank 1 (Freshman)

Main Classes

Color Theory I: Color terminology, introduction to hue-shifting, choosing colors)

Prerequisites: None

Line Art I: Creating smooth and effective line art

Prerequisites: None

Shading I: Shading basic forms; basic shadow and light source properties

Prerequisites: Color Theory I

Perspective I: Overview of basic perspectives

Prerequisites: Shading I, Line Art I

Anti-Aliasing: Explanation of anti-aliasing

Prerequisites: Shading I, Line Art I

Pixel Art Taboos: Things to avoid in pixel art

Prerequisites: Shading I, Line Art I, Anti-Aliasing


Filler Clases

Isometric I: More in-depth about isometric perspective

Prerequisites: Perspective I

Objects I: More in-depth about pixelling basic objects

Prerequisites: Pixel Art Taboos, Perspective I

Overworld[/B: Basics about the "overworld" POV in spriting

[B]Prerequisites: Shading I, Perspective I

Pokemon Sprites I: Red, Blue, and Green Style

Prerequisites: Perspective I, Pixel Art Taboos

I apologize for all the quotes. Just me lazily organizing things so it's a little bit more visibly discerneable...I believe.

Entrance Quiz (prior to change, open to suggestions)
Academy Entrance Quiz
This is just a small, short-and-sweet quiz you must submit to become a student in the academy. Don't worry, we aren't testing you on your skills and aptitudes; we just want to see where you are as of now in knowledge and experience so that we can tailor to your own, individual learning curve.

Please note that in order to effectively learn here, you will need to "forget" some of the things you've learned already. Clear your mind.

1.) What is pixel art? You don't have to go into a long-winded explanation, unless you would like to. Put this in your own words, or try to.

2.) Do you have any prior experience in spriting / pixel art?

3.) If so, for how long have you been into this form of art? If you aren't sure, a simple "guesstimate" will do just fine.

4.) Post five of your most recent sprites, good or bad. If you don't have any, skip this question. If you honestly have less than three made ever, that is acceptable.

5.) Post three to five of what you feel are your best works. There is no time frame in which these had to have been made. You can have some from your five most recent. If you don't have any, skip this question. If you have less than three, that is acceptable.

6.) Post three to five of what you feel are your worst works. This must be relatively recent--within the past year. You can have some from your five most recent. If you don't have any, skip this question. If you have less than three, that is acceptable.
I just need to write up the actual lesson plans for the first rank. And the introductory thread....


...
...I need a life.

[Rival Max]

I think this is a great idea! I hope you guys can get this up and running!

[Pokeman]

Dredd, you ARE an admin, so couldn't you just put this up and give it permission? Or do you need to talk it over with the other Admins?

[SassySnivy]

I would honestly need to put more thought and planning into it before it would be ready to submit as a completed idea. That being said, that's why I'm keeping the flow in this thread going: any outside ideas / suggestions, discussion, suggestions on how to make it appeal to the community, etc. are much appreciated. Just overall discussion. I'm still working on the outline for the main and filler classes for Ranks 3 and 4. That being said, I need to write out the "curriculum" / lesson for each course. I need to make it so that if I were to suddenly go all AWAL on you guys or something, I could have someone who could successfully take my place. Of course, the latter is a lot to ask for, so that will likely be a later focus.

[Rival Max]

Dredd, you ARE an admin, so couldn't you just put this up and give it permission? Or do you need to talk it over with the other Admins?

;) I am aware of my position here. This thread is a discussion thread, I was chiming in with my opinion. Once the discussion is over then we can talk about what happens next. For now I imagine Speed wants to draw out the idea more.

[Caite-chan]

I love this idea. The one question I would have is how would you go about doing the lessons? Because people learn different ways as I'm the type of person that needs to be shown step by step to understand where as someone else learns by having someone tell them something and they can do it. Will we have a program that you can sere what we're doing as we do it?

[Pokeman]

;) I am aware of my position here. This thread is a discussion thread, I was chiming in with my opinion. Once the discussion is over then we can talk about what happens next. For now I imagine Speed wants to draw out the idea more.

Ahhh. I understand.

[ray_quazaa]

Have you seen 'Coding School'? Perhaps it may be useful to develop them, then we can start to put the guide on our front page (or off of the front page).

[Mr. Nyan]

I would love to take part on it! Even though I'm skilled, I would like to take some lessons. For the classes you could stream or screencast the lessons... Bah, I dunno.

[Rival Max]

I love this idea. The one question I would have is how would you go about doing the lessons? Because people learn different ways as I'm the type of person that needs to be shown step by step to understand where as someone else learns by having someone tell them something and they can do it. Will we have a program that you can sere what we're doing as we do it?

I can't speak for Speed but we could use are Youtube to create an how to series. That way people who learn visually can see what steps to follow. Something that would help me out as well.



Have you seen 'Coding School'? Perhaps it may be useful to develop them, then we can start to put the guide on our front page (or off of the front page).

Im not sure we are at that stage first. I would think that after the first group goes through the program there would be a set guide that we could then pass on. At first it might be best to test the "lessions" first.

[SassySnivy]

Caite-chan

Each lesson would be separated by thread. For example, for Freshman "classes," it would theoretically have to be divided into 8 or more threads: Color Theory I, Line Art I, Shading I, Perspective I, Anti-Aliasing, Pixel Art Taboos; and then for the filler classes, Isometric I, Objects I, Overworld, and Pokemon Sprites I. The last four are extra, optional classes.

I will have each of the lessons ready to be posted, but
will actually have them up one at a time. Whenever the first person is ready to move on, the new thread will be posted.

But I digress slightly.

Each lesson thread would consist of what the focus is (likely several paragraphs or a few large ones); excellent tutorials relating to the subject (I will likely take excerpts from some of them--but also provide the links at th end), a default challenge / assignment that the students will need to start on, and most likely the OP will contain more content. That is one thing I still need to think through; however, once I have the first lesson finished I will post it here as a template of sorts to see if you guys think it will be effective.

Ideally, each student would submit their finished challenge as a post in the corresponding lesson thread. A mentor would provide constructive criticism and will make the ultimate decision as to whether they think the student is ready to move on or needs more practice. Constructive criticism includes describing what was done wrong, what could be done to improve it, and likely how to improve it. However, on the subject of a student passing or staying in a course is ultimately up to the head mentor(s). There are no grades and failing simply does not exist.

Perhaps on the entrance exam I could also include a question relating to the learning style of the student submitting.

Thank you for bringing up these questions; if I wasn't clear, let me know! ^^

------------------

ray_quazaa
Unfortunately, I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about here. Think you could clarify a bit? :>

------------------

Mr. Nyan
I'm not necessarily planning on Livestreaming, simply because my internet doesn't have the capability to host a steady Livestream. Not even on join.me will it probably work. But I will think about using screenshots, if not even videos, if I need to explain something to someone in greater detail. I actually found an awesome program the other day that was made for the sole intention of being used with pixel art. Otherwise, I have really no experience with Youtube or recording / uploading videos at all. I honestly think pixel art is best with screenshots instead of recordings because of the fact that Youtube diminishes the quality of the video so that it's difficult to view individual pixels / pixel clusters. I would at least need something that is crisp and concise but not too excruciating for a network with an average speed to download / upload / stream.
Judge Joseph Dredd

[ray_quazaa]

Speed-X - Instead of each lesson being a separate thread (or in addition), they can be an actual separate webpage within our site. Obviously, if they wanted help, they can register as ask for help in the threads too.

I was thinking about writing up something for newbie spriters since I'm trying to rebuild pe2k's sprite dex... (and it's nearing completion now...)

[SassySnivy]

Having both the resources and being open for help (in this case, by assigned tasks per thread) wad the original intention, but I see exactly what you mean. I think that final say should be up to the head admins. Maybe we could, like Dredd mentioned, use the first "batch" of students almost as guinea pigs to see how things go. We can alter some things along the way from there if need be. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Dash]

Ugh sorry about the short post that's about to come up. Anyways...

We had this at PS, and it was successful for the most part. The main problem is finding people to manage it and people to participate in it. You can't make cake without the batter, but the cake won't be good without the frosting (bad metaphor). anyways, it can work, just be careful how you go about it I would say.

[SassySnivy]

It's no worries! And yes, I think that will likely be the most difficult part; especially finding the right people to assist as mentors. And about the students, that's actually another reason I created this thread first...so we can see who all is initially interested. ^^ Thanks!

[Caite-chan]

I know we would make sure it was well known and we could advertising on Facebook and Twitter and the site.

[ray_quazaa]

And though I don't see the forum admins opposing you, I'm happy to post a good sprite guide on PXR's site.

[SassySnivy]

If you would like to make a PxR sprite guide on the main page, then thats totally your call. :> And yeah, I see what you mean.

[Rival Max]

And though I don't see the forum admins opposing you, I'm happy to post a good sprite guide on PXR's site.

I like the guide but i think I have misunderstood whats going on in this thread. I thought this was a discussion about setting up a sprite school..lol

[Caite-chan]

It is but it doesn't mean we couldn't post tutorials on the site.

[ray_quazaa]

The School's main documents could be on the site or duplicated on the site and forum with the interaction being on the forums itself.

[SassySnivy]

That wouldnt be a bad idea. On the main threads I would most likely have links to external tutorials. After all, most of this planning has included me searching for the same type of tutorial by different people. Found several fantastic guides. Everyone has their own way of doing things, so I figure that if I have a variety of guides for one lesson then it will help students feel a little more free and not limited to following one guide word for word. Also, Ill likely type of some type of comprehensive guide myself for them all. Im going to work on the Color Theory lesson as soon as Im back home.

Edit: Hey guys, I'm bolding out this entire edit because I want to make sure I provide extra emphasis on this.

This spriting academy will not be working with the Pokemon sprite edits a lot of us are familiar with. We will start with the basic elements of pixel art--some of the most important ones--and work into making things ourselves...without having to edit from a base. If you feel uncomfortable with this, you guys should probably let me know so I know who all to expect.

On the other hand, if you are aware of and comfortable with this, I would appreciate if you would let me know about that, too.

Thanks for your time, everyone!

[Canadian Palkia]

I don't know about this. I think that more people would be interested in making pokemon sprites and working off a base rather than learning pixel art in general, but that's just my take on it. I might be interested in doing a little teaching, even though my work isn't the greatest. This applies only if it's more pokemon spriting though, because I really can't do any other pixel art otherwise lol. I think this is a good idea that would help get the spriting community a little more active around here.

[SassySnivy]

I don't know about this. I think that more people would be interested in making pokemon sprites and working off a base rather than learning pixel art in general, but that's just my take on it. I might be interested in doing a little teaching, even though my work isn't the greatest. This applies only if it's more pokemon spriting though, because I really can't do any other pixel art otherwise lol. I think this is a good idea that would help get the spriting community a little more active around here.
Thanks for the feedback, Palkia. I'm always really glad when someone points out a [pretty significant] flaw so that I can think up a solution! Really, not being sarcastic. ^^; I love positive, neutral, and negative feedback all the same.

You make a pretty good point. Actually, I probably should post up the lesson plans for the rest of the ranks--or at least progress on it--because more of the filler classes contain more Pokemon-based pixel art things. I'll show you!
Rank 1 (Freshman)
Main Classes
--Color Theory I: Color terminology, introduction to hue-shifting, choosing colors)
--Prerequisites: None
--Line Art I: Creating smooth and effective line art
--Prerequisites: None
--Shading I: Shading basic forms; basic shadow and light source properties
--Prerequisites: Color Theory I
--Perspective I: Overview of basic perspectives: isometry, axometry, head-on / sidescroller
--Prerequisites: Shading I, Line Art I
--Anti-Aliasing: Explanation of anti-aliasing
--Prerequisites: Shading I, Line Art I
--Pixel Art Taboos: Things to avoid in pixel art
--Prerequisites: Shading I, Line Art I, Anti-Aliasing
Filler Clases
--Isometric I: More in-depth about isometric perspective
--Prerequisites: Perspective I
--Objects I: More in-depth about pixelling basic objects
--Prerequisites: Pixel Art Taboos, Perspective I
--Overworld: Basics about the "overworld" POV in spriting
--Prerequisites: Shading I, Perspective I
--Pokemon Sprites I: Red, Blue, and Green Style
--Prerequisites: Perspective I, Pixel Art Taboos

Rank 2 (Sophomore)
Main Classes
--Color Theory II: Basic color conservation, in-depth hue-shifting
--Prerequisites: None
--General Anatomy I: General overview of anatomy of living things
--Prerequisites: None
--Shading II: More complex forms, alternate light source perspectives
--Prerequisites: Color Theory II
--Pixel-Overs: Overview of tracing in pixel art; utilizes shading and line art
--Prerequisites: Shading II
--Dithering: Types of dithering: 50%, Stylized, Random, Interlacing
--Prerequisites: Shading II
--Textures I: Basic textures and applying shading to them
--Prerequisites: Dithering
Filler Classes
--Animation I: Basics on animation: frames, movement
--Prerequisites: Shading II
--Pokemon Sprites II: Gold, Silver, and Crystal Style
--Prerequisites: Shading II, Dithering
--Objects II: More complex objects.
--Prerequisites: Shading II
--Isometric II: Applying knowledge to isometric pixel art
--Prerequisites: Shading II


Rank 3 (Junior)
Main Classes
--Shading III: Mimicking and finding your own style
--Prerequisites: here
--Blocking: Pixel art method that starts with shapes intead of lines
--Prerequisites: here
--Color Theory III: Advanced color conservation, working with very limited palettes
--Prerequisites: here
--Texturing II: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--General Anatomy II: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
Filler Classes
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here


Rank 4 (Senior)
Main Classes
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
Filler Classes
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
--Title: Description
--Prerequisites: here
However, maybe I should add more things like this for filler classes? For instance I'm really regarding adding something kinda fun like those TCG pixel overs. Does anyone have any other suggestions, perhaps? Something that's potentially pretty fun / enjoyable. However, using your point, I wonder if making these Pokemon based things be extra classes that require prerequisites...would you think they would give people an incentive to reach that goal, perhaps?

Canadian Palkia

[Blaquaza]

Like Dash said, we had one of these back at PS. Ours focused more on the Pokémon aspect of things, and it was quite successful. I took a few classes, and it's great to pass them. :)

However, here's my main criticism; I'd prefer to learn more about Pokémon - and maybe RPGs in general - rather than just the general pixel art field. I don't know if making Pokémon classes the 'big bad' lessons of every rank would work, because some people might get bored before they learn what to do. Also, I don't know if some people like to sprite R/B/Y style before I learn the DS techniques (although I'd like to learn both :D). One more thing is that some people might already have experience in spriting Pokémon, but feel completely out of their depth when spriting real objects/people.

I know I'm coming across like a real 'female dog', but I'm really interested in this idea, and I want it to be as easily accessible and available to everyone as possible.

[SassySnivy]

However, here's my main criticism; I'd prefer to learn more about Pokémon - and maybe RPGs in general - rather than just the general pixel art field. I don't know if making Pokémon classes the 'big bad' lessons of every rank would work, because some people might get bored before they learn what to do.
If there was only one thing that I retain from my high school art classes, it would be this: you need to have a basic understanding of realism before you can successfully draw in a more cartoony and/or stylized style. While this exactly doesn't apply to this case...in order to be able to successfully make Pokemon sprites, you need to know the basic techniques in pixel art / spriting. Also, I don't plan on these classes taking very long. And since you do make a good point with the "getting bored" part, I'm going to make sure those classes aren't long...at all.


Also, I don't know if some people like to sprite R/B/Y style before I learn the DS techniques
This is because with the knowledge you gain in the 1st rank, it's just enough to be able to better understand one of the simplest spriting styles in the main-series Pokemon history: Red, Green, and Blue. They only use 4 colors, and if you make some mistakes here and there it is a lot more excusable than it would be in any of the modern DS styles (RGB, as I've noticed, feature more prototype versions / designs of the first generation of Pokemon; also because the style isn't strict on getting the size proportions correct as they are recently).


One more thing is that some people might already have experience in spriting Pokémon, but feel completely out of their depth when spriting real objects/people.
I don't see anything about starting to sprite real objects or people from the start...needless to say, in a more realistic style. What Objects I is bound to cover is basically going over common shapes and objects and how to effectively understand them, give or take.


I know I'm coming across like a real 'female dog', but I'm really interested in this idea, and I want it to be as easily accessible and available to everyone as possible.
I don't think you are. What I think is that you are bringing up some good points that I'm sure a lot of other people are wondering, as well, except that you spoke out on it. :> Thank you so much! Let me know if you have any questions and/or follow-ups to my rebuttals.
Blaquaza

[Suicune's Fire]

I would love to participate in a class like this. My only concern for you is other staff: I feel like, especially if this is pixel-oriented, nobody would be able to match your level of mastery. xD You're most certainly a suitable teacher, but I don't know if you expect yourself to run this on your own, or if you want others to help you. I mean, people could help you in other areas that aren't teaching and that would be fine (such as reminding people to get work in and such) but beyond that I'm not sure. If you feel like you could run it on your own then I would encourage you to try and I'd take part in the classes myself. :]

So yeah, I'm all for it!


~SF.

[Blaquaza]

Always glad to throw in my two cents, maybe a little too glad.

To be honest, I actually agree with what you're saying now. Drastic changes of heart are my speciality, or so it seems. XD I guess learning the very core basics couldn't hurt either, considering that my scratch sprites still have a lot to improve on (mainly getting texture and shading right). And if the classes aren't too long, then I'm all for it.

Also, I suppose that starting with the R/B/Y sprites and developing could be a nice little niche. I guess if it's easier, then you may see me releasing an 8-bit version of the game I planned on releasing instead of a 32-bit version. :3

Speed-X

[ray_quazaa]

Speed-X

I whole heartedly agree with your thoughts! I think learning the basics of art is the first step in spriting.

I think there's a lot to be done to help people start; I've certainty had an uphill climb understanding sprites and I think we can all work together to make it easier for newcomers and oldies alike!