Assassinate Orin? [Closed]

[Shruikan]

At this point we should not assasinate anyone. Maybe once we have more stalkers than we can restrain we should start considering it, but at this point we should in no way be damning Orin to eternal punishment just because it's faster.

If we complete the Sin Purge Ritual then everyone is saved. Apart from the ones we kill beforehand. So stave off the murder until after we know that the ritual isn't likely to work.

I would be more than willing to restrain Orin any time it's required, but I have been healing everyone up 'til now.

[Lychee]

At this point we should not assasinate anyone. Maybe once we have more stalkers than we can restrain we should start considering it, but at this point we should in no way be damning Orin to eternal punishment just because it's faster.

If we complete the Sin Purge Ritual then everyone is saved. Apart from the ones we kill beforehand. So stave off the murder until after we know that the ritual isn't likely to work.

I would be more than willing to restrain Orin any time it's required, but I have been healing everyone up 'til now.

Well ok- we do already have more stalkers than we can restrain!
I know Orin is confirmed as Epsilon, but im almost 100% sure Yurtag the Palpitoed is Indulge. He is most likely angry about getting rejected by every food joint in town and also Shilamora, plus... you know how a pokemon would have to be hypnotised to eat that much? Well, his pokemon type can do that.

[Truly]

The thing is, Orin isn't our only concern. Assassinating Orin could save someone else -- or save a lot of pokemon, as we use the actions currently spent on him to complete the Ritual.
We're concerned about his soul, but what happens to the souls of those killed by Stalkers?

I believe the question we're meant to ask ourselves is, is the well-being of one pokemon as important as that of multiple others? And, what if it's someone mean and old and bad who nobody likes and doesn't do much? Is it worth that Tepig kid being killed? Or the Decidueye that we've wasted 4 actions on? Is giving up on Orin and his, let's be fair, miserable existence worth that Alolan Sandslash getting killed, and the Sandshrew kid ending up like Dee'mang? Traumatized and friendless and orphaned and adopted by an abusive parent?

And honestly, what happens to the soul of a Pokemon in Salvage Keep when they die naturally? Do we have a good and bad place? Are souls returned to the pool to be drawn again, or reassembled? Are they simply dissipated into the air? What about the soul of an old, dry, bitter man with hatred and murder in his heart? Even if he's spared *our* judgement, what's to say he's not damned anyway?

And I think it's a valid take, to think we ought to worry about saving Pokemon's lives and making those lives better, which we CAN do and see, instead of worrying about what MIGHT happen to one's soul after life, which we have no idea about.

Or, well, some of you might. But I haven't played before, so I'm not concrete on the cosmology.

[Shruikan]

The thing is, Orin isn't our only concern. Assassinating Orin could save someone else -- or save a lot of pokemon, as we use the actions currently spent on him to complete the Ritual.
We're concerned about his soul, but what happens to the souls of those killed by Stalkers?


I believe the question we're meant to ask ourselves is, is the well-being of one pokemon as important as that of multiple others? And, what if it's someone mean and old and bad who nobody likes and doesn't do much? Is it worth that Tepig kid being killed? Or the Decidueye that we've wasted 4 actions on? Is giving up on Orin and his, let's be fair, miserable existence worth that Alolan Sandslash getting killed, and the Sandshrew kid ending up like Dee'mang? Traumatized and friendless and orphaned and adopted by an abusive parent?

And honestly, what happens to the soul of a Pokemon in Salvage Keep when they die naturally? Do we have a good and bad place? Are souls returned to the pool to be drawn again, or reassembled? Are they simply dissipated into the air? What about the soul of an old, dry, bitter man with hatred and murder in his heart? Even if he's spared *our* judgement, what's to say he's not damned anyway?

And I think it's a valid take, to think we ought to worry about saving Pokemon's lives and making those lives better, which we CAN do and see, instead of worrying about what MIGHT happen to one's soul after life, which we have no idea about.

Or, well, some of you might. But I haven't played before, so I'm not concrete on the cosmology.

You are saying that one pokemons life isn't worth sacrificing several others, and I agree. But we're not talking about a life, we're talking about eternity.
What you are suggesting is like cutting off someone's hand to sell so you can buy candy for some orphans. The masses are happy for a few hours, and the other guy is crippled for the rest of his life. There's nothing saying that he won't lose his hand in the future anyway, so that's perfectly fine, right?

I agree that we shouldn't worry about what might happen. Assasinating Orin will guarentee that he gets a bad afterlife. What we can do is not kill him and give him a chnce to avoid it, just like everyone else has.

I agree that it is a valid take, but it is one that I STRONGLY disagree with.



Regardless, with confermation that we can make multiple cages, once complete we can restrain multiple pokemon. Therefore, the pressing reason to kill Orin is gone.

[Truly]

Regardless, with confermation that we can make multiple cages, once complete we can restrain multiple pokemon. Therefore, the pressing reason to kill Orin is gone.

Perhaps.
Now all that's left is to urge Morzone to actually play to the strengths he chose so we actually can build a cage.

edit:
ok and actually
Do we know what happens to the soul of a pokemon killed by stalkers? Is it not claimed by them as well?


and like, it's not "oh he might lose his hand later in life." He might lose his hand very very soon. He doesn't use his hand. But if he used his hand, he'd use it for beating those children I'm trying to give candy to.
IDK, flabebe.

AND, it's a choice that Orin made for himself. If we weren't there, based on his own choices, he'd kill a bunch of pokemon as Epsilon, THE WORLD WOULD BE CLAIMED BY STALKERS, and then his damned soul would be taken. By his own choice. Even if it was made in a moment of weakness or a fit of rage. Why is he worth protecting from himself over protecting others from himself?

From a game standpoint, there's no reason keep him alive.
From a game standpoint, there's all the more reason to assassinate him. As the player count dwindles our actions are drastically cut in number, making the Ritual less and less likely to be found and completed.
@Lychee, maybe you can tell me the number of preventable deaths that will occur before we are forced to assassinate Orin anyway. Obviously, the upper limit is 25.

:p
I get pretty caught up in it, I guess.

[Shruikan]

Perhaps.
Now all that's left is to urge Morzone to actually play to the strengths he chose so we actually can build a cage.

edit:
ok and actually
Do we know what happens to the soul of a pokemon killed by stalkers? Is it not claimed by them as well?

No, we don't know. But as you said earlier, it's better to focus on what we can do and know.

and like, it's not "oh he might lose his hand later in life." He might lose his hand very very soon. He doesn't use his hand. But if he used his hand, he'd use it for beating those children I'm trying to give candy to.
IDK, flabebe.

AND, it's a choice that Orin made for himself. If we weren't there, based on his own choices, he'd kill a bunch of pokemon as Epsilon, THE WORLD WOULD BE CLAIMED BY STALKERS, and then his damned soul would be taken. By his own choice. Even if it was made in a moment of weakness or a fit of rage. Why is he worth protecting from himself over protecting others from himself?

Ok then. Another way. Is it ok to kill a guy to cure a town of a non-life threatening disease that doctors are working on a cure for as we speak?
It really doesn't matter what the person's done or if they deserve it. It is not our place to decide that. We were sent here to protect the pokemon of Salvage Keep, and like it or not, Orin is one too. If he would be damned if we weren't here is irrelevent, as we are here, and can make things right.

From a game standpoint, there's no reason keep him alive.
From a game standpoint, there's all the more reason to assassinate him. As the player count dwindles our actions are drastically cut in number, making the Ritual less and less likely to be found and completed.
@Lychee, maybe you can tell me the number of preventable deaths that will occur before we are forced to assassinate Orin anyway. Obviously, the upper limit is 25.

:p
I get pretty caught up in it, I guess.

Yes, from a game standpoint it makes sense. I am not and never will be focusing only on a game standpoint. The point where we are condemning someone's soul just because it's easier/more efficient gameplay wise is that point where you lose one of you healers, as I will take no part in such a game.

[Truly]

Ok then. Another way. Is it ok to kill a guy to cure a town of a non-life threatening disease that doctors are working on a cure for as we speak?

More accurate example, is it OK to kill a guy with a life-threatening disease to cure a town of a life-threatening disease that doctors are working on a cure for as we speak?

Because that's what we're dealing with.

It really doesn't matter what the person's done or if they deserve it. It is not our place to decide that.

I mean, it literally is.

We were sent here to protect the pokemon of Salvage Keep, and like it or not, Orin is one too. If he would be damned if we weren't here is irrelevent, as we are here, and can make things right.

It's not irrelevant. No matter what you decide here, a sacrifice is being made. So it's not irrelevant, who is sacrificed is literally up to us.

You want to put not just 1 person, not just 7 people, not just the town of Salvage Keep and surrounding areas, but the whole world that it's situated on in peril -- that is to say, demon-claimed souls -- over executing the 1 person who does not provide value, wants to hurt others, and chose to give up his soul. Not risk his soul. He didn't know we were showing up. He knowingly damned himself in order to do more harm.
We are here to protect the Pokemon of Salvage Keep from him.



But fine. If this is how you want it, we'll do it like this:

No more playing around. No more needlessly talking to Pokemon, no more healing at night (we have berries), no more restraining Orin (someone else will kill in his stead), no more scavenging or making cages (I was wrong, it'll just waste turns), no more investigating Pokemon (we know who the Stalkers are, we just can't do anything about it.)

No hanging out with Vex or learning about cool or fun subplots. If we're here to protect the town and the world, including the unrepentant serial killers, then we start focusing our attention on Searching and solving puzzles. To protect and save as many Pokemon as we can.

Yes, from a game standpoint it makes sense. I am not and never will be focusing only on a game standpoint. The point where we are condemning someone's soul just because it's easier/more efficient gameplay wise is that point where you lose one of you healers, as I will take no part in such a game.

Now it's 100% a game standpoint. No more fun stuff -- only urgently piecing together the Sin Purge Ritual until it's done, lest Salvage Keep fall into the claws of the Stalkers, and all their souls be claimed.

[Noblejanobii]

No more playing around. No more needlessly talking to Pokemon, no more healing at night (we have berries), no more restraining Orin (someone else will kill in his stead), no more scavenging or making cages (I was wrong, it'll just waste turns), no more investigating Pokemon (we know who the Stalkers are, we just can't do anything about it.)

No hanging out with Vex or learning about cool or fun subplots. If we're here to protect the town and the world, including the unrepentant serial killers, then we start focusing our attention on Searching and solving puzzles. To protect and save as many Pokemon as we can.

I will point out that certain things like interviews, investigations, scavenging, the side quests, etc. might actually help in piecing together the Sin Purge Ritual since in the past we needed to locate items to be used for it and those were obtained by various means, such as how like Lillian has made people compliant to get certain items. So I think ruling those aspects out entirely might be jumping the gun a bit too quick since they're gamplay elements that were included for a reason.

That said I think the debate has started to get a tad intense so while it seems to be mostly finished, please just remember that this is a game we're all playing for fun! Since this is a forum, it can be really hard to gather tone and the use of things like bolding text can be seen as aggressive which might discourage people from wanting to participate, and we definitely don't want that since we want all hands on deck to finish the ritual. So just try to keep that in mind for future discussion. Thanks!

[Shruikan]

More accurate example, is it OK to kill a guy with a life-threatening disease to cure a town of a life-threatening disease that doctors are working on a cure for as we speak?

Because that's what we're dealing with.

No, that's not a more accurate example at all. You've completely missed the point, and I honestly don't know how to explain it to you.

I mean, it literally is.

Ok, I may have missed that part. Remeind me again when we became gods?

It's not irrelevant. No matter what you decide here, a sacrifice is being made. So it's not irrelevant, who is sacrificed is literally up to us.

You want to put not just 1 person, not just 7 people, not just the town of Salvage Keep and surrounding areas, but the whole world that it's situated on in peril -- that is to say, demon-claimed souls -- over executing the 1 person who does not provide value, wants to hurt others, and chose to give up his soul. Not risk his soul. He didn't know we were showing up. He knowingly damned himself in order to do more harm.
We are here to protect the Pokemon of Salvage Keep from him.

Yes a Sacrifice is being made. We are not only deciding WHO is sacrificed, but WHAT. The temporary lives of a few pokemon, in return for the endless afterlife of 7 others.
Regardless of of Orin deserves it or not, once we start down the Kill all the Stalkers road, we have to follow through to the end. That means damning 6 others, who potentially don't deserve it. It's not just about Orin.

But fine. If this is how you want it, we'll do it like this:

No more playing around. No more needlessly talking to Pokemon, no more healing at night (we have berries), no more restraining Orin (someone else will kill in his stead), no more scavenging or making cages (I was wrong, it'll just waste turns), no more investigating Pokemon (we know who the Stalkers are, we just can't do anything about it.)

No hanging out with Vex or learning about cool or fun subplots. If we're here to protect the town and the world, including the unrepentant serial killers, then we start focusing our attention on Searching and solving puzzles. To protect and save as many Pokemon as we can.

Now it's 100% a game standpoint. No more fun stuff -- only urgently piecing together the Sin Purge Ritual until it's done, lest Salvage Keep fall into the claws of the Stalkers, and all their souls be claimed.

Did you even read what I said in the part you quoted?
I don't know how to respond to this.

[Lychee]

Perhaps.
Now all that's left is to urge Morzone to actually play to the strengths he chose so we actually can build a cage.

edit:
ok and actually
Do we know what happens to the soul of a pokemon killed by stalkers? Is it not claimed by them as well?


and like, it's not "oh he might lose his hand later in life." He might lose his hand very very soon. He doesn't use his hand. But if he used his hand, he'd use it for beating those children I'm trying to give candy to.
IDK, flabebe.

AND, it's a choice that Orin made for himself. If we weren't there, based on his own choices, he'd kill a bunch of pokemon as Epsilon, THE WORLD WOULD BE CLAIMED BY STALKERS, and then his damned soul would be taken. By his own choice. Even if it was made in a moment of weakness or a fit of rage. Why is he worth protecting from himself over protecting others from himself?

From a game standpoint, there's no reason keep him alive.
From a game standpoint, there's all the more reason to assassinate him. As the player count dwindles our actions are drastically cut in number, making the Ritual less and less likely to be found and completed.
@Lychee, maybe you can tell me the number of preventable deaths that will occur before we are forced to assassinate Orin anyway. Obviously, the upper limit is 25.

:p
I get pretty caught up in it, I guess.

Well, yeah. I guess that's why I'm not too worried about his pokemon spirit- he chose this. He wanted to kill. He STILL wants to kill, even when his stalker isnt in control. He's blended with the evil, it's different to the other stalkers, he told us that himself. If theres a judgement call about souls, his is getting sucked into the abyss along with the stalker that's melted like goo into his very essence.
I mean...
Don't you ever wonder what happened to the OTHER founders of Salvage Keep?



From a numbers standpoint! Oooh! My fav thing to do!
Ok so, we have two forgers, and we can count on nearly 10 players to take an action or follow directions. If we all put the restrain plan into action, everyone scavenging for materials (knowing that those without the bonus will be less successful) buying materials, and possibly someone else learning forge, it would likely still take us 2 day and 2 night cycles to get somewhere around 3-6 cages?
I mean, if we really really focus on that on the next day cycle, we could potentially have 3 cages for restraining by night time... but then who do we restrain?
It could take a lot of turns to find out, but once we had 7 cages I guess we could figure it out in the day, then systematically jail the whole town like a giant game of mastermind or something lol
Regardless, even if we're smart and coordinated and lucky, at least 4 more innocent pokemon would die.
I guess if we assassinate orin, it might not change that! So that leads us back to completing the ritual asap instead. That's an unknown goal atm coz we dont know how many steps there are...