Team System Discussion and Ideas

[Felly]

I've more or less opted out of this thread, but since I saw a post I felt like I should reply to since I pretty much already provided an idea on it that was probably missed/disregarded/whatever the reason is that it wasn't seen, I'm going to go ahead and do that. I'm also just going to go ahead and add this: just because it didn't work in the past doesn't mean it can't work now. That's the main argument I'm seeing against the drafts, so my counter argument is that just because it didn't work once or twice or however many times doesn't mean it can't ever work. An unwillingness to try is an unwillingness to see if it could work now. For all we know, you guys could try the draft in next year's WAR, and a majority of the people would love it. You can't know what the people like unless they speak up or you try it; one person cannot speak for everyone.

Like Homura said, there's not going to be a system that pleases every single person here. If you can please the majority of the people, then it could work. The WAR leaders, the PXR staff, no one here can make a system that pleases everyone here; it's possible, but it would be so complicated and possibly have things that contradict each other that it wouldn't make sense. Please the majority, and things should more or less fall in place. You can't make everyone happy, but if you lose a majority of your people making the minority happy, things are going to fall apart.

One member winning points per category per team sounds reasonable to me, though it could lead to teams entering something crappy just to get the third place points if nobody else enters. This is a possible abuse of the system and need to be not indulged. If an entry is particularly bad and there's only three entries, the judge should be allowed to not give out all the points and reserve them for actual good entries.

In one of my other posts, I suggested that if there's a large gap, say 10 or more, between first and second or second and third, then give the points to whoever normally would have received that position. There's a full example in this post that I'm not going to regurgitate. It would basically be judges discretion on the gap itself, but I think that all of our judges can make the appropriate judgment on that. They probably wouldn't have been chosen as judges if they were going to be awfully biased or anything of the sort.

Of course, I also have my opinions on how judging is done, but I feel like this year's issues should be addressed before we get into next year's, and as far as I'm aware, this year's issues haven't really been resolved (even though they possibly could be). That and I can address those after this year's WAR when I feel my comments would be more appropriate since I'll have another year under my belt and will have seen more on the judging anyways.

[bronislav84]

Really? You're going to ask people to try a system previously proven flawed again to see if they feel it's not flawed? If it worked, we would still be using it. *sigh* Okay, good luck with that. I'm gonna say I'm still against drafts from the bad precedent and just leave it at that.

As for that solution to the issue if crap entries, yea sorry I missed that. It sounds pretty reasonable.

Carry on people. I trust the Leaders, or whoever will be Leaders next year.

[Ace Trainer Liam]

I think having two separate WARs and systems would be a bad idea just to separate the competitive teams and the "joke" teams. To be honest, I don't really like the term "joke" team anyway; what if a "joke" team had the most active people on it and won WAR, or got second? Are they still a joke? They probably would've had the most fun out of any other team, which, iirc, was the main point of this years WAR: to have fun. Albeit yea, this is a competition, but there seems to be a blend of "joke" teams and competitive teams imo; some teams seem to focus more on competition than others, some more about fun, and others that are in between.

Also just because a team focuses more on fun doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to compete (and vice versa: competitive teams should be having fun). More likely less people would join those teams, which leads us in a nice segue to team system issues.

There seems to be a more consensus from experienced people about the draft not working well, or giving results that work, but aren't as fun. Also, people seem more inclined to a soft cap, or a variation of a soft cap. That still presents an issue where Lord Celebi pointed out that people would then wait until the team they want opened up. I think we should discuss more about how to solve that issue, and maybe, not solve it.

I would think if people were interested in doing WAR by themselves, they would be willing to join a variety of teams and if a team they wanted was full, they could wait, but eventually would have to choose one. Recruiting people to teams that are harder to get people into would help this issue, or maybe blending teams together that are too, or very small. (I know blending teams in the past has been an issue, but those teams would have to come to realization that if they want to be on the competing platform they would need to blend or accept that they may not be as big a force as they may have wanted).

Any system we eventually agree upon (or at least majority agrees upon) will not be perfect and some people will be upset about it; however, I also think any of the ideas that have been presented so far would help the system we have and that's better than nothing.

EDIT: also I agree with Felly that if something didn't work out before, maybe we can tweak it and try again.

[bronislav84]

Octopus Babies was a joke team that partook purely in the competitive battling sections and won a War. Kind of recent, actually. That's considered a fiasco.

A joke team is considered a team that has zero substance or is just a War-related thread that is completely random. There was a team about animated gifs in the same War. Also a joke team. It's about as bad as titling your thread [WAR] My Team and for the opening post saying this is a War team, join please. I'd be like, why? Your team is about nothing. A joke team is pretty much defined as a team that has no semblance of what it's about and equates to this is a team, join.

[Ace Trainer Liam]

Octopus Babies was a joke team that partook purely in the competitive battling sections and won a War. Kind of recent, actually. That's considered a fiasco.

A joke team is considered a team that has zero substance or is just a War-related thread that is completely random. There was a team about animated gifs in the same War. Also a joke team. It's about as bad as titling your thread [WAR] My Team and for the opening post saying this is a War team, join please. I'd be like, why? Your team is about nothing. A joke team is pretty much defined as a team that has no semblance of what it's about and equates to this is a team, join.

Oh well that makes sense. To my knowledge, at least what I've seen so far, there haven't been any joke teams yet.

I'm still a fan on soft caps and what Homura said last page.

[VeloJello]

Personally, if we're going to alter the system (which I don't believe should happen, I believe we should just let people pick whatever team they want and let things go how they go) I think that allowing each team to only place once in any given category is the best system. Having caps would just pressure people to get things done nownownow without waiting to see if any good new teams emerge, and a draft sucks the fun out of things because it doesn't allow people to pick what team they want to be on. just my two cents bye

[bronislav84]

Oh well that makes sense. To my knowledge, at least what I've seen so far, there haven't been any joke teams yet.

I'm still a fan on soft caps and what Homura said last page.

Yoga is as close as we're getting to a joke team this year, but at least they're dedicated. Just look up Octopus Babies thread.

[Saraibre Ryu]

Yoga is as close as we're getting to a joke team this year, but at least they're dedicated. Just look up Octopus Babies thread.

You might not be able to find it as last I checked, PE2K is the dead. If anyone does, let me know.

[Elysia]

Yoga is as close as we're getting to a joke team this year, but at least they're dedicated. Just look up Octopus Babies thread.

Yoooooo, we just need a good graphic designer for the awesome banners and the four five seven of us are gonna rock your world with our killer yoga moves.
...yeah, no, we're definitely a joke team, but we're trying really hard not to be, honest!

You might not be able to find it as last I checked, PE2K is the dead. If anyone does, let me know.

I know we used to be able to find it with the Wayback Machine, but 1) I don't know if it saved individual threads such as WAR team chats, and 2) for some reason, clicking on that tries to take me to Twitter now.

I'm kinda against the limiting of submissions/only letting one team place per category for the following reasons:
=Even with a point gap limiter like Felly suggested (ie, if there's a 10-point gap between first/second place and a potential third place submission from a different team, if I understand correctly), this seems horribly arbitrary: it'd be really easy for judges to create a 10-point gap in their scoring anyway. Heck, if I were a judge and I thought that two submissions from the same team deserved second place, this would be my first instinct in order to let the most deserving submissions get the most points for their teams this is also why I'm not a judge probably
=There's a fine line between making WAR more competitively viable (ie levelling the playing field for big and small teams, like we're trying to do here), and completely nuking the competitive aspect. I think that by preventing teams from scoring multiple places, even if they *do* present work that merits 1st/2nd place, starts to fall in the latter. We're trying to balance the competition, not nip it in the bud.
=If anything, I think it might discourage members from large teams from placing because they might get absolutely no points for their work. If I'm on a team with someone who's really good at category [X] and I figure that they're gonna place higher than I will, then there's basically no point for me to enter my own work, because I won't get any points anyway. This is sad. :(

That being said, I'm going to throw my hat in with the soft cap crowd because no one wants random drafts I promise they're great guys, really ;-;. There's some general fear about people just waiting until the teams they want to open up, but doesn't this solve both the problem of people not getting on the teams they want as well as large/small teams in one shot? Also, I'm asking this not as a rhetorical question but as a legitimate query: is there anyone who would choose not to compete in WAR at all simply because their first-choice team is full? That seems to be another major concern here, but I'm not sure if I'm understanding it correctly.

Also also, could we maybe set up a poll (perhaps after the dust has settled more on each individual system) with all of the potential options suggested (perhaps including a "keep things the way they are; I see no problem at all" option, because that's still surprisingly popular) and ask people to mark all of the theoretical systems that they would be okay with participating under should they be implemented in WAR? Ie a lot of people are saying in this thread that "system [X] is going to be super unpopular and no one is going to like it," so it'd be great to weed those out early on.

[bronislav84]

https://web.archive.org/web/20140903...d.php?t=113763 This be the thread. I found it. It's a team about nothing, and look at the random stuff they post in the thread. Even Yoga has more substance than this and as Elysia said, is trying not to be a joke team.

Letting you know @Saraibre Ryu :)