Grudges

[Maddox]

Well, I thought we were going to have an interesting discussion, but since you feel it's necessary to dismiss my opinions and imply that I don't understand what it is to have conflict simply because of my religious background, I think I'll bow out of this discussion before it turns into something other than discussion. I've said my part and now I'll let others give their thoughts.

[Rival Max]

Well, I thought we were going to have an interesting discussion, but since you feel it's necessary to dismiss my opinions and imply that I don't understand what it is to have conflict simply because of my religious background, I think I'll bow out of this discussion before it turns into something other than discussion. I've said my part and now I'll let others give their thoughts.

Didn't mean to seem dismissive. Nor did I know you were religious, just assumed based on what you were saying. Its probable best to stop before it goes further than this. We just have two different mindsets and thats completely okay.. My arguments weren't meant to be personal towards you, just trying to point out what I saw wrong in your argument.

Also I love when people post threads like this..lol. @Absol you picked a topic that almost everyone would agree with. Someone has to play the devil advocate and point out the other end of what your saying.

[Braixen]

Also I love when people post threads like this..lol. @Absol you picked a topic that almost everyone would agree with. Someone has to play the devil advocate and point out the other end of what your saying.

By all means! I think it makes for a fantastic discussion and you've brought up some amazing points I haven't even considered. It's nice to see other's opinions and learn a bit more about the possibilities. :)

[Rival Max]

My only purpose here is defend balance. If you dont hold grudges you never really learn the lessons of letting that pain go. Both are equally important and both have pushed the world around us in different ways. People get different things for grudges and forgiveness. Sometimes people need that hate and that motivation they need it as a reminder of things that are not right. Other times people need to learn to let go because its only causing them more damage. Its just not a black and white kind of thing.

[Saraibre Ryu]

I don't talk much in potentially provocative discussions but considering my background and past history:

Warning this was a much bigger text wall than I expected. So I put it in a spoiler tag.

Spoiler:

I don't find nor have found any evidence for grudges necessary for living, nor are they the same thing as anger. Anger is at some points in time, necessary and is an emotion. Grudges are not. Holding onto bitter resentment and or ill will towards a living being or specific thing doesn't promote healthy things this world needs. That is what a grudge is: holding onto bitterness and resentment. People make a choice to hold on to things, thus why grudges are held. It's easier to hold onto something of course, and letting things go is very hard, there is no denying that, but it's still a choice.

Being angry at someone is perfectly alright as long as it doesn't get out of hand. Anger necessary for the body to vent and release negative energy and emotions that, if pent up, will result in far more harmful effects. Few people learn how to express anger in a different form. I personally choose to try and not to get 'typically angry' when something does anger me, because I lived in a household of nothing but yelling, screaming, anger, hostility, and bitterness. It was supposed to be a family unit. My family unit but no, it was a constant free for all. The anger there was unnecessary because it was a constant swirling rampage. I had things held over my head, things from years ago. I couldn't take it anymore after years and years of negative reinforcement so I decided to stop being angry and leave. Almost two years later after moving, I feel a lot better now that I'm in a better environment, and every time I look back on it, I choose to not be as they were.

That brings me to my next point: the development of grudges comes to choices, but grudges are caused by something negative coming onto a person that may or may not necessarily be yourself. It is still a choice to hold one, because you are choosing how to react to that you are exposed to and choosing how to develop from it. You are choosing how to grow and if you are going to cling to something negative. How do you plan on fulling moving forward with something constantly dragging you down? What is the point? The grudge of one person can carry to many like an infection, and thus can create discrimination, more hate, and discord within an environment and society. It is easier to hate, it is easier to be angry, and thus, people make the easier choice. Most people don't even think about being angry, angry just comes and it's not thought about at all. It promotes unhealthy development of a person's mind.

This is where the difference of anger opposed to grudges comes into play. Anger and a grudge are two different things as I said before. Anger is an emotion and can come without thinking, often does come without thinking and does not require thought to be created. Grudges, while caused by other sources like anger, are not created in a near instant, and is a product entity of various other factors mentioned before: resentment and feeling ill towards another person or thing that sits and festers and doesn't cease or dissipate. Being angry at something is natural because emotions do not need other catalysts to created them. If something happens that makes you happy, you don't need other emotions to create that happiness, and often times, more emotions are stemmed from one emotion. Grudges are created the other way around: multiple negative emotions creating one product.

For me personally [not like what I didn't say above was part of my personal life or anything, aha], I don't have any grudges nor think I have had one. There are things that I remember of people that I've met that remind me of negative things that they have done that I didn't like, but I don't hold on to it. I don't see a point. I've lived in such a horribly negative environment for too long that I don't need it. I choose to move on and live a life with minimal anger and [despite everything I've been put through mentally and emotionally, without any grudges. If you knew all of the details, a select few of you do] you'd be surprised that I don't hold grudges at all. I recognize that things make me upset, sad, angry, and even annoyed, but rather than get to the point of holding onto that, I let it go. I now have days where I can live where the worst thing I feel on a daily basis is being irritated. I'm glad I have some days without being angry, it means I can fill that time and space up with things that are better for me.

I choose to live as someone who can resolve and understand without hate. I want to influence the world to be like this somehow and the best way I can right now, is to show by example. If people want to choose to hold grudges, then that's something that's just too bad for them. I'll probably end up annoying them with future happiness that I [hope and am aiming to] achieve.

[Sandstorm Lavastone]

I don't normally post on these forums at all, as public forums scare me, but I was shown this thread and it irked me, a lot. I too am from a negative environment, and let me tell you, grudges are the worst possible thing I can do for myself.

Spoiler:

Maddox, I don't think anything you said had anything to do with religion and was completely applicable outside of your beliefs. -I- totally agree with most of what you said and I'm not even religious. I think you have a great understanding of what conflict is, and from what I read of your posts, you also know how to deal with things in a very level headed manner, good on you! ^^

And frankly, Shadow Tracker Max, I think your way of thinking is -extremely- twisted. The fact you carry a lot of grudges around makes me sad for you. You are choosing to be resentful of what others have done to you and that really isn't going to do anything for anyone in the long run. It's as Maddox said, you're carrying excess luggage around. Anger helps others and pushes people along yes, but grudges are just unnecessary. They hold a person back and make it so you can't let go of the pain. Anger and grudges are two different things.

Forgiveness IS part of enlightenment, actually. If you don't forgive, even though it's hard, pain sticks to you like glue and it does nothing for a person. I've held grudges in the past and all they did was make me unhappy, fill me with anxiety and hate, when really, there's two sides to every story and there's always some wrong that has been done on both sides. (unless someone was murdered or some disgusting nasty crime or something, or being back stabbed, I see no reason to hold grudges against others.) I agree with what you said about balancing conflicts within yourself and forgiveness, but there's nothing in that situations that requires grudges as a need. Letting go of hate is freeing and frankly I think holding onto grudges is the coward's way out.

Someone's wronged you and your pissed about it, instead of holding a grudge, just be successful in life because guess what? That's the best revenge.

The best thing to do when there is a conflict with others, is to RESOLVE them, not hold a grudge against them. You lose friends that way and also create a circle of hate, you also don't realize your own actions if you keep grudges. If you did wrong, you need to know this and think about your actions, if you keep telling yourself that you were right for what you did and choose to be resentful of the other person, you aren't going to learn crap all about yourself.

Oh and btw, people get angry without thinking ALL THE TIME. Everyone has triggers that set them off and make them say things they don't mean due to how angry they are at the time. And while no one can say they have lived ONLY feeling joy, there are MANY that can say they live without holding grudges, and I know quite a few people who have never held a grudge in their life time. They've gotten angry, yes, but never held grudges. It's all about balancing your emotions and realizing what's a trigger for you, and to stop yourself when you feel yourself getting a little too irrational. Easier said than done yes, but again, you can live many a day without feeling an ounce of bitterness or anger. I've went months and months with just being content, really, maybe a little angry about a few things here and there but it was never lasting, nor did I choose to hold a grudge against those few things.

I just dealt with it and moved on.

Also, no, you can't limit a person "nice/peaceful" set of laws, and yes people who are bitter can grow, but they aren't going to grow into a respectful person. Not to point out names but my Great grandmother is a great example. She is so freaking bitter that she's IRRITATING to me, she complains about EVERY LITTLE THING and CHOOSES to be resentful of others, and this is why she lives in her tiny apartment, eating candy every day and doing virtually NOTHING. She CHOOSES to be resentful of those that wronged her, so there she sits, living a bitter, lonely life until death comes knocking on her door.

Is that how you want to be too?

Holding grudges and being negative is called "stinking thinking." I suggest you go learn about it.

Anger is necessary but there are times when it becomes so much it's UNnecessary. Grudges are NOT useful for anyone, nor do they exist for survival. Judgement does exist for survival, yes, but that really depends on the way you're using it. People shouldn't be judged for their way of life, for example, or who they are. Should you judge a person that's treating you badly and figure out weather they are bad for you or not? Absolutely.

Total forgiveness IS possible. For some, they can forgive but there will always be a bit of a scar there, but they moved on so it doesn't hurt anymore. Some completely forgive, and some choose to hold petty grudges. But yes, total forgiveness is possible and I've seen it time and time again.

The world is full of gray, but grudges is a choice, and it's all in how you handle things that makes you happy or makes you miserable.

My big brother is a great example of practicing major forgiveness. He never holds any grudges, at all. He's been angry before, but never for very long. He knows what forgiveness is, and yes it can be very very hard for some, but easy for others. He's taught me the art of how to deal with others and be happy.

I hope you realize how bad grudges are some day too.

Also, I'd like to state that I can vouch for my dear Saraibre Ryu, as it's true. I know the details and she's been through -A LOT-, and she's right, you'd be surprised she holds none.

I've been there for her for 8 long years, and it's been no kiddy ride down unicorn lane, that's for sure.

[Rival Max]

hahaha I picked a side of this that wasnt popular for a reason. I love Absol but this was a fluff topic that was meant not for a real debate but for everyone to do exactly what they have done. Point out reasons not to hold grudges. Im to old to fall into this group of thought. No time left to say that forgiveness is the end all and be all to life, Id never believe in such a thing. Anyone who says you have to let something go is ignoring the amazing things that have been done through anger and bitterness. As I pointed out some of the best works of art come from hate, pain and anger. Grudges are natural, envy is natural and its not true that people holding grudges cant grow or change or learn. Its just not.

Im honsetly glad you all feel the way you do and thats more power to all of you. I dont feel sad for you because you feel so one sided. Nore do I hold it against you to claim that grudges are any different that judgement or envy. I have been around and see many different forms of motivation, many different people going through joy and pain. All of it is needed. You all have missed the point of what Im saying.

At no point did I say everyone should hold grudges forever nor did I ever say I am holding a grudge against anyone or anything right now. My point of view has formed through many many life experiences I have been in which is a lot. I just wil not agree that Human beings can just apply a positive attitude and everything is fine. We are just too different...struggling and pain are just as important to who you are as the fluffy moment of joy.

Ill respect that everyone is going to basically say the same thing. Not sure why you guys cant respect my view...

Also even if I did live with extremely feelings..look at my presence on the forum look all the things I have done just on this site. You look at that and tell me that grudges are holding me back ;)

[Braixen]

I respect your opinion for sure. Everyone is welcome to their opinions, or to venture into opinions they may not necessarily believe. Nothing wrong with exploring, it's the best way to learn of course.

[Sandstorm Lavastone]

"I carry a lot of grudges around with me. Im half tempted to hold a grudge for you creating this thread ;)" <-- Yes, yes you DID. The way you throw around grudges like it's just candy really upsets me, you must not understand how negative life can be and what it can do to a person.

Too old? No one is too old to learn new things and it's obvious you are set in your ways and your mind is severely closed. I find people of your generation are so set in their ways and they don't realize that the things they believe are so outdated...

You ignored everything we've said and you must of had a very sheltered life in your younger years to truly believe grudges are useful... I feel you need to learn the facts, seriously. I did not take years of different programs and therapy for you to come along and tell me my teachings are ridiculous. My teachings are based off of true research of the human mind, social scientists and the like. Of course, it's not that easy, you can't just put on a happy face and everything is fine, that's why people DEAL WITH THINGS and LET THEM GO instead of holding on to petty grudges like you do.

You missed the point of everything we've said, and frankly? You need a paradigm shift. I don't feel what we've said is onesided at all, your troubles do help shape you, but it's how you DEAL WITH THEM that really makes you the person you are. And some people are overridden with bitterness and hate, and it teaches the world the wrong message. Balance is critical and hate is not needed in that balance.

A grudge is a form of hate.

Everything that has been done out of anger and bitterness came with a price, and none of those prices were pretty, history and otherwise.

Your brain seriously needs a good untwisting.

I cannot respect your view simply because it's twisted and you keep disregarding everything we're saying and our own experiences.

If you've done so many "great things" out of bitterness and hate, then prove to the world.

I will not reply again.

I dislike public forums, always have, always will. They scare me and frankly, I really don't want to be here right now and should never of posted in this forum.

Too full of scary people such as this.

[Braixen]

Please try and make sure when you're posting that your content isn't too personal. Discussions are welcome but attacking people personally has no place on this forum. :) It's fine to disagree with another person, and it's fine to have a heated discussion but please make sure the discussion is about the topic at hand and not a way to insult or put down other individuals.

Please keep this in mind when posting in this thread. Thank you.