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Thread: The great Sinnoh Dex debate

  1. #1
    Mary Mary tell me how your garden grows. Desolate Divine's Avatar
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    The great Sinnoh Dex debate

    So @Rival Max and I are at a disagreement about something in GCEA Platinum and neither of us are willing to budge, which means between us there will be no resolution.

    Instead of us needlessly arguing for hours until we want to kill each other, we figure we will let the people who it actually affects (you guys) make the call. What we will do is have a civil, formal debate, where we both will present our arguments, justify our arguments, and rebut the opposition, and when the debate is over, there will be a vote from you guys about which way we go about this, in order to have some resolution.

    At any time, you guys can post a question addressed to either one of us here, and it will be answered in the recipients next post, in addition to their arguments.

    This debate will be moderated by @Suicune's Fire, to make sure it is fair, and doesn't get out of hand. Her word is law.

    Rules for myself and Max.
    1. Follow the given structure (easy enough).
    2. Don't respond to questions addressed to the other person. If people want one of our opinions, they will ask us. This also goes for interfering with answers. Discussion between the two parties will be based purely on the dialogue of the debate NOT answers given to questions.
    3. We go with what the players vote for. If the playerbase disagrees with me, I am willing to concede defeat. I expect the same respect.
    4. Keep it civil and formal. No swearing (aimed at me even censored)) and keep arguments educated and to the point.
    5. If either participant feels like rules aren't being followed, tag the moderator and let them decide whether it is appropriate.

    Here is the source of the debate.

    Previous versions of Gotta Catch 'Em All have a rule that prevents Pokemon from the GCEA Regional Dex of the given region being able to be given as gifts from most events. In GCEA Platinum I have wanted to scrap this rule, allowing any base level, non legendary or mythical Pokemon be an option for event rewards. Rival Max disagrees and wants us to keep the rule.

    The structure will be as follows.

    Rival Max: Contention
    Desolate Divine: Contention/Rebuttal
    Rival Max: Rebuttal
    Desolate Divine: Rebuttal
    Rival Max: Rebuttal
    Vote opens.

    I am placing Rival Max first, as the initial discussion came from him. As an act of good will, I am also allowing him to finish the debate, to show that I am not trying to do anything less than fair. I want this resolved in a way that isn't one party doing what they want regardless of what the other party think, and I feel like this is the most effective way to reach a fair resolution, and intend for it to be fair to both parties. Hence why Suicune's Fire will be moderating. I trust her ability to remain just and impartial. All I want is this to be resolved in a way that is fair to both sides.

    As mentioned earlier, if you have specific questions you would like answered by either party, don't hesitate to post them here. Just make it clear who you would like to answer the question.

    So Rival Max, the floor is yours.

    @Brettles @Noblejanobii @AWA1997 @Shruikan
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  3. #2
    The idea of having debate every single that was already established annoys me. As you can tell Jacob and I disagreed and this is why he felt it should go here. I for one do not think this is appropriate because I said to him shortly before getting directed here. When I joined on to the wfl I may have helped out but I didn't change rules clearly established on my valuation (not sure that spelled right).

    This issue is as clear as what gcea stands for. In 2012 or 2011 when gcea was created the goal was to catch them all. Directly after the game was created a system was made to challenge the players. One of the basic rules that all gcea have followed was that pokemom that are part of the rp pokedex are not to be gifted or given out freely.

    The pokemon in the dex are off limits to things such as events(writing or drawing), they are not in the lotto nore are im any other random event. This includes bday unlocks. Exception being your actual bday because we felt like this was a once a year event.

    The pokemon are directly connected to unlocks so there is a direct consequence to randomly giving pokemon. Any pokom randomly given could create an unfair advantage for one player or another. To maintain the integrity of the game this minor as it seems rule keep gcea honest.

    Now if you are in the new version of the gcea, jacob slightly changed the way pokemon appear without even discussing it. The rng was not meant to have a nothing happens option. Everyone is suppose to find a pokemon or very very rarely find an item. That system needs to be adjust or it will throw off the balance of pokemon on teams. I only bring that up because i feel it has directly lead to this.

    @Pokemon Trainer Sarah please feel free to join in as well





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  4. #3
    Mary Mary tell me how your garden grows. Desolate Divine's Avatar
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    My contention is this. Dungeons and Dragons is one of the most popular and well loved RPGs ever made, a mantra among DMs is Fun over rules. This doesn't mean to have no rules, because that would suck. What it means is that flexibility is important, and that a super-rigid, unchanging set of rules can take away from the fun of it. If a choice has to be made between fun or rules, choose fun. Why else do we do Role play? I want to have a similar mantra with running GCEA Platinum. I want people to enjoy themselves and not find themselves frustrated at a GM who is unwilling to budge. One of the fun things about GCEA is roleplaying with your dream team. I recall in the days before Platinum opened, discussing what Pokemon we wanted our characters to end up with. However this rule that I wish to remove, makes having a dream team a lot more difficult, in ways I will explain later in this post. In short, I feel like this rule takes away from the enjoyment of what is usually a fun roleplay.

    When I joined on to the wfl I may have helped out but I didn't change rules clearly established on my valuation (not sure that spelled right).
    Firstly, this is like comparing apples to oranges, in that the two situations could not be much more different. I joined GCEA nearly six years ago, before being able to GM a story on my own. This isn't a case of me coming in and first thing I do is changing things. My presence, and role with helping develop the story of GCEA began a long time before I started GMing Platinum. This decision to change this rule comes from experience before anything else. In the case of WFL, whilst I don't know specific dates, I highly doubt that your presence in WFL, both as a player, and as a general helper, was anywhere near as long before you became an official. Secondly, the way the game ran and the team structure were highly different. GCEA has two main staff members, being the two of us, whilst WFL had at least a half dozen, and the main story of WFL was run across dozens of threads, as opposed to the roleplaying element of GCEA being in a single thread. To change rules in WFL would be much more trouble getting the rest of the team on the same page, as well as making it not be a detriment to the plot when the playerbase was spread so thin across so many different threads. Thirdly, the role of official in WFL was not as authoritative as the role of the Game Master in GCEA. It was closer to the role of Story Master in GCEA. In addition to this, I was the one who actually completed the story of GCEA Hoenn, as well as started the gears moving again to begin Sinnoh. I don't mean to brag, but there is little to compare between myself and a WFL official.

    This issue is as clear as what gcea stands for. In 2012 or 2011 when gcea was created the goal was to catch them all. Directly after the game was created a system was made to challenge the players. One of the basic rules that all gcea have followed was that pokemom that are part of the rp pokedex are not to be gifted or given out freely.
    That is fair enough, but in all honesty, how viable, as well as how much of a priority is that goal? I would happily bet money on the fact that the current active members of GCEA joined for the story and the battling system, as opposed to collecting Pokemon, which really, in all honesty, are imaginary and serve no purpose outside of this game. Whilst collecting Pokemon unlocks additional Pokemon, these reward Pokemon are no better than Pokemon that can be caught or unlocked by other means (not saying to make them all legendary, I am just stating a fact), so really serve little purpose outside of either a given player wanting one of these specific Pokemon on their team, or for collection purposes, which as I mentioned before, doesn't really offer much incentive.

    In addition to this, whilst the game is called Gotta Catch 'Em All, the current mechanics make filling even the regional Pokedex borderline impossible.

    There are 319 Pokemon in the GCEA Sinnoh Regional Dex (as opposed to 210 in the Platinum Regional Dex). This is 39% of the national Pokedex, which is only available via in game encounter. And they are the only Pokemon that count towards these goals for achievement Pokemon. When you only count the base stage, non legendary Pokemon, which can evolve into the rest, that number is still a whopping 136 Pokemon, adding 20 for Pokemon such as Eevee where multiple are required to complete the Pokedex. Then deduct 25 that are only available as rewards. This means that there are 131 Pokemon that need to be caught in order to evolve them and complete the Regional Dex. Here are some figures to put that into perspective:
    -In GCEA Hoenn, which took five years to complete, my character had 70 Pokedex Entries. Not 70 first stage Pokemon, but including evolutions, 70 Pokemon, over five years.
    -Ash Ketchum, the protagonist of a series where the opening theme song is about catching them all, managed to catch 89 out of 809 Pokemon. I don't think it is meant to be taken too literally.
    -Currently the roll rate (which you are correct in stating I set) of encountering a Pokemon in GCEA Platinum is roughly a 1/3 chance. That means that if someone is truly balanced, not lucky or unlucky, it would take them 393 encounters to catch every base stage Pokemon. Platinum has been running for two weeks, and we have had two, with a third planned before we reach the next city (spoilers).
    -Even if we removed the Nothing Happens roll, and made the Pokemon encounter roll a 1/2, it would still me 262 encounters. However it gets worse. Each route has a minimum of three Pokemon which can appear. And this is RNG decided. However this RNG system was created by Rival Max. All I created was what happens in an encounter (Nothing Happens, Pokemon Appears, Item, Trainer Battle), which I created four months after Rival Max created the initial Pokemon appearance rate sheet. So basically, if you are trying to complete the Pokedex, and don't catch Shinx in the first four routes (and it isn't likely that you will catch a Shinx specifically), you cannot obtain it without going back to the three routes where it is available and therefore risk throwing off the story, as opposed to waiting for an event to obtain it.

    What I am trying to say here is that if the point of playing GCEA is to truly Catch 'Em All, then the system needs a major overhaul to make that easier to obtain, and this removing this rule is actually helping to make that point a reality.

    The pokemon are directly connected to unlocks so there is a direct consequence to randomly giving pokemon. Any pokom randomly given could create an unfair advantage for one player or another. To maintain the integrity of the game this minor as it seems rule keep gcea honest.
    Because Pokemon in GCEA do not have base stats, this statement of there being direct consequence to giving randomly generated Pokemon in events (such as the most recent Platinum one) is false. Pokemon have a base amount of points, which can only be lowered by berries which are not given out often. If you end up with a Pokemon that has too many points, it can't be used until the player either gets a berry to lower its points (which therefore makes it more even) or has enough badges to control said Pokemon. The recent event, Pokemon were given in eggs which meant that no evolved Pokemon were given out. This in no way creates an unfair advantage. And if I remember correctly, in GCEA Hoenn, we were all given an egg with a shiny Pokemon from our characters native region. Mine was a Torchid (5 Points). Trainer17 got a shiny Druddigon (50 points). We both received our eggs at the same time and it wasn't too long before Trainer17 hatched that egg. But as I said before, measures were in place to prevent him using an overpowered Pokemon.

    If the unfair advantage is with regards to completing the Pokedex, there are no time based rewards for completing it, or points for being first or second. The only rewards are the Pokemon, and this goes back to what I said about the GCEA battling system, where outside of legendary Pokemon, no Pokemon will be naturally stronger than another players.

    Now if you are in the new version of the gcea, jacob slightly changed the way pokemon appear without even discussing it. The rng was not meant to have a nothing happens option. Everyone is suppose to find a pokemon or very very rarely find an item. That system needs to be adjust or it will throw off the balance of pokemon on teams. I only bring that up because i feel it has directly lead to this.
    As I mentioned earlier, yes I created the RNG system of whether Pokemon appear, items are found, trainers challenge players, or nothing happens. However, there was no direct instruction that a nothing happens option was forbidden. I created the system on my own without getting approval from Rival Max, because a few days earlier, I contacted him saying that GCEA Sinnoh has been delayed for way too long because neither of us are willing to look past what we want, and he agreed. The plan was, due to his lack of time, for me to have creative freedom getting GCEA Platinum to a point where we can start. And even then, for the task of finding Pokemon to complete the Pokedex, the RNG system designed by Rival Max isn't much better, as it is still random. That section of the officials guide has no instruction as to what happens if a player encounters a Pokemon they already have, so by default (as I, the GM, was not told otherwise), they will encounter the same Pokemon. If the focus isn't on completing the Pokedex, this isn't a problem. One could do what Matthias (@Brettles) did to the Kricketune he encountered and battle it instead for story purposes (which makes it easier to evolve Pokemon, as there is nothing more irritating than having enough points to evolve your starter, but it has no battle experience and therefore doesn't make sense to evolve).

    Finally, the last sentence in the quote mentioned is false. This whole discussion started because Sophie and Matthias won eggs in the tournament that contained Magnemite and Snover respectively. The RNG system I designed for encounters has absolutely nothing to do with why this discussion started. I can provide screenshots if necessary to prove this point.
    Last edited by Desolate Divine; 02-01-2019 at 11:15 AM.
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  5. #4
    Mary Mary tell me how your garden grows. Desolate Divine's Avatar
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    @Rival Max. You have 24 hours to make your next arguement before the vote is triggered. I want this to he resolved fairly and this seems like the only way.
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  6. #5
    Initially, this thread took me by surprise. In the history of this game, I had never had to defend the basic rules of this game in such a public way. At first, I was annoyed but I have taken time to discuss the issue with the admins on the forum who both have played an integral part in shaping a gcea story. It important we try to understand both sides of dispute such as this. For me personally, I do not believe a public forum was an appropriate way to do this. This issue is a staff issue. However after talking with the admin both of which are mutually respected by myself and Jacob. I got a little more of the side of this situation.

    So the following is my response.


    It appears to me that the issue posted in this thread is not actually the focus of this thread. The issue of this thread is creative freedom vs traditional rules. We can not go on debating an issue that is only being used as a point of order of the actual problem. This issue arose because as Jacob needed to do he stepped up to get GCEA rolling again. His actions were direct decisions to get the game up and running. Of course, I trusted him to get the game running and he has a done a great job with managing Platnium.
    But (of course, there is always a but) GCEA has a sole creator. All decisions in GCEA still have to go through me. Debating it here or in the staff section is fine because that feedback has always helped shaped where gcea goes. I am a firm believer in compromise and I believe there is a solution to the core of this problem.


    I will be leaving this thread open of course as I do think opinions on this matter are important. I will be making some direct changes to fix the problem at hand. I, of course, will keep that updated in the staff section for the current staff Jacob, Brettles and any mods (with permission to see it lol ).

    The solution I have to the dex issue is this. I will be adjusting both the actual Dex and RNG list. I plan on cutting down on the overall dex number to make the in-game pokemon more of an achievable goal. Until this thread was started I never realized people felt like the goal was almost impossible that is something that I overlooked trying to fit in a variety of pokemon. If you have any questions or comments please feel free to post them here.

    The other major issue in this thread appears to be two very similar people feeling unappreciated for I think is the same reason. We all want to given respect and trust. Especially when we worked hard to create something that matters to us. Jacob is doing a great job, to me, it was never trying to squash any momentum but it feels like that is exactly how it appeared. I think highly of Jacob and consider him a friend. the two of us have had some classic battles because we are both stubborn individuals.





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    Spoiler:

    Gible bite's Comic


    GCEA Trainer Links based on title characters

    GCEA Diamond/Platnium/ Blizard Blue/ Pokemon Prism.......


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  8. #6
    Mary Mary tell me how your garden grows. Desolate Divine's Avatar
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    It appears to me that the issue posted in this thread is not actually the focus of this thread. The issue of this thread is creative freedom vs traditional rules. We can not go on debating an issue that is only being used as a point of order of the actual problem.
    This statement is false. Whilst what I said in my contention may seem to make it believable upon suggestion that this debate is truly about creative freedom vs traditional rules, that is not the case. Whilst that influences my opinion on the issue, this debate is NOT about creative freedom vs traditional rules. This is about the need for a rule that is restrictive, out of date and serves no purpose.

    The solution I have to the dex issue is this. I will be adjusting both the actual Dex and RNG list. I plan on cutting down on the overall dex number to make the in-game pokemon more of an achievable goal. Until this thread was started I never realized people felt like the goal was almost impossible that is something that I overlooked trying to fit in a variety of pokemon. If you have any questions or comments please feel free to post them here.
    As I mentioned in the other thread, this does not solve the issues I raised prior. It is a 'fix' which attempts to hide the existence of a deep rooted problem but doesn't actually fix it, and instead raises other issues.
    1. Even if we were to reduce the Regional Sinnoh Dex to 210 like it was in Platinum (which means there would be no Gen V, VI or VII Pokemon in the regional dex), that is still 26% of the national dex. Whilst completing a Pokedex of 210 Pokemon in the actual game isn't too much of a challenge, there is one major difference. In Pokemon Platinum, Pokemon encounters are triggered by the player. All I have to do to trigger an encounter is walk into tall grass and within seconds, a Pokemon has appeared. You could catch hundreds of Pokemon in the space of a day. In GCEA, Pokemon appearances are triggered by the GM. This means that you could have two Pokemon appear in a day. Or go three days without an encounter (this happens during heavy story sections of the game).
    2. The simple solution to this would be "Hey, GM, have more Pokemon appear!" but it isn't that. Easy. Firstly, variety is what keeps a game like this getting boring, and if people were spending most of the time in GCEA catching Pokemon, it would get stale very quickly. In addition, catching Pokemon (as well as evolving them) isn't cheap. Increasing the encounter rate of Pokemon doesn't mean anything if players can't afford to catch them. GCEA Sinnoh has been running for two weeks, and so far there are players who have only made 10 to 15 posts, which means they only have 10-15 points. To put this into perspective to capture all of the Regional Dex included Pokemon in Route 206 will cost 78 points total, for a single route. There are simply not enough points being distributed to players to allow such urgency for catching Pokemon. Whilst players can compete in the Quick Cash Section to get extra points, if Catching 'Em All truly is the point of the game, players shouldn't be forced into participating in mini games just to achieve that. Besides, if a player participates in both the sketchpad and journal on a given week, and receives perfect scores for both, they will only earn 30 bonus points, not even half that is required to fill a routes Pokedex quota. Heck, I just counted how much it would cost to complete the Kanto section of the Sinnoh Regional Dex (including pre evolutions such as Pichu and Later generation evolutions such as Electivire) and it would cost 2083 points for that section. 2083 points for 65 Pokemon, and that isn't counting items needed as well. Out of 210 minimum, depending on the whether the dex is changed (however that is not my primary concern). Lets assume I posted twice a day and averaged 20 points a week from the journal and sketchpad for a year (which is being extremely generous), I would not even get two thirds of the points needed just for those 65 Pokemon. And in all honesty, if all goes to plan, I am hoping for GCEA Platinum to be finished in about 18 months by my guess. To make catching them all viable in game, more points would need to be pumped in which would then break many other elements of the game. Evolution would be too easy, as would leveling up Pokemon. It would also mean that any and all stores would need to be updated and made more expensive. I don't want GCEA to become the RPG version of Venezuela.

    But don't let this distract you from the actual debate. This debate isn't about how realistic the goal of catching them all in GCEA is. It just became a prominent topic. The debate is about whether the rule restricting Regional Dex counting Pokemon from event rewards is necessary. Here is what I will wrap up with.

    There has not been a single argument for the implementation of this rule that has been undisputed. Every reason that I have been given for keeping this rule has been disputed by two things.
    1. Regardless of who says the aim of the game is to catch them all, it is both impossible, and has been proven untrue. With GCEA now on its fifteenth entry, I highly doubt (and I only say this because pe2k isn't active so I cannot check there to fact check. In my mind I am certain) that any player has indeed completed their Regional Dex. Instead, players found enjoyment from a deep and captivating story, and a point system which requires skill and gives a good foundation for an enjoyable RPG experience. It may be called Gotta Catch 'Em All, but that is really just a catchy name and nothing more. We can say otherwise, but there is too much evidence to say anything different.

    2. The argument that allowing regional dex Pokemon as event rewards gives players an advantage is untrue. I am repeating myself here because it seems like last time it wasn't read or understood. For this advantage to exist there needs to be at least one of two things. Firstly, a reward given, where the value is based on the length of time taken to complete the Pokedex (first, second, third etc). Secondly, for the reward Pokemon given for reaching milestones to be better than Pokemon obtained through other means. Neither of those things exist. There is currently no reward outside of a Pokedoll to give a Legendary Pokemon Pokedex Entry (which is only useful for completing the national dex, which is a whole other type of impossible), which means that it makes no difference if a person finishes their Pokedex first or last. As for the second thing that doesn't exist, one must understand the value of Pokemon here is different to the value of Pokemon in mainstream games. In terms of Pokemon in games, their value is determined by their base stats, Level, IVs, EVs, Nature and typing. In GCEA, it is based on their Level, Evolution stage and typing. What this means is that whilst in a mainstream Pokemon game, if a Type: Null and a Bidoof were to fight, on average the Type: Null would win as it has over double the total base stats of Bidoof. In GCEA, however, it would be a tie. They are the same type, same points, and same evolutionary stage. Just like how the reward Pokemon given for reaching Pokedex Milestones are no better or worse than Pokemon caught elsewhere in the game. They all have the same potential. They can all be evolved, have their levels maxed out, then have type advantages over some pokemon, and disadvantages over others. Therefore if a player gets one of these reward Pokemon earlier than the others, it makes no difference, and creates no form of advantage.

    Instead, what has been offered is a system of fixes which don't really address the problems I've outlined, but instead cover up the issues I've raised, whilst also bringing in their own set of issues, to allow this rule to seem like the good option.

    If I were to sum this up simply, removing this rule would both benefit both parties ideals. It would benefit Rival Max and those in agreement with him, in making the game more true to his vision of being able to catch them all, because as it stands, that is borderline impossible without major overhaul (One I would not recommend midway through stories), as well as benefit myself and those who are in agreement with me, in being able to create and roleplay characters who truly fit our vision.
    @Rival Max, after your next post, I will open up the floor for players to let us know what they think of all this. After all, feedback has always helped shaped where gcea goes.
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  9. #7
    @Desolate Divine please read my last post. Feel free to open the discussion up now. As it stands this issue has been solved as I am currently working on something that hits at the core of this problem. However, I will take all feedback into consideration of course.





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    GCEA Trainer Links based on title characters

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  10. #8
    Mary Mary tell me how your garden grows. Desolate Divine's Avatar
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    This isn't solved until we are at agreement. That is what compromise is.
    @Suicune's Fire @Brettles @Noblejanobii @Shruikan @AWA1997 the floor is yours guys. What do you think. This affects GCEA platinum first and foremost so it is your opinions that matter.
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  11. #9
    The Maddest Shaymin
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    So I have been taking notes on this debate since the initial post. I addressed this as if I were judging a debate tournament to see what both sides had to present argument wise. And while I have more than just the two points below listed in my notes, these points are the main ones that in the end have caused me to side with Jacob. The rule should be removed. You can see my brief notes down below but that being said they aren’t very elaborate due to the fact that I’m currently sending this from my cellphone. So if anyone wishes for me to elaborate I will do so later tonight.

    -Trying to figure out what Pokémon are and aren’t in the regional dex right now is a bit cumbersome due to them being logged in a forum post that takes a while to load due to it using images instead of names.
    •Reducing the size won’t really fix this.
    •Leaves room for potential error from player
    •We have to use points to catch and evolve Pokémon. Too expensive to catch them all?
    •Could cause them to miss out on their favorite Pokémon potentially or from building a dream team when the game is all about having fun.
    •If this really needs to persist a better solution would be to list every Pokémon in the regional dex in a searchable spreadsheet on google sheets OR list every Pokémon and have a yes or no next to them corresponding to with who is and isn’t in the regional dex to make it a lot easier for players and GMs to figure out what is and isn’t in the dex.
    •Jacob was given creative freedom by Max. Overall he should be allowed to use trial and error to see what works and what doesn’t, then be allowed to make changes if the alterations weren’t successful like intended. Helps to improve future games.

    -While not the focus of the debate, since it was brought up, sticking to the original or traditional rules of a game is not always the best. Video games like Breath of the Wild abandoned their usual styles for something that was a bit of a gamble but was much more well received and fun for most players involved. And if we want to talk solely RPGs, Neo has revamped and changed up how the Stalkers game works every season, introducing new things and refinishing other things in order to make it more fun for the players involved. He listens to player feedback at the end of each season and incorporates it into the new season. As a result, the overall stalkers season has been a blast even if they haven’t finished every time.
    •Game developers and GMs need to be flexible when dealing with players. That’s why it is important for this to be a public debate since if it is not what the people want then it should not be in place.
    •A game that doesn’t not listen to player feedback is doomed to fail. Just look at how many of EA games and Bethedeza’s games have been received recently.
    •Again repeating the final point from the previous bullet, Jacob was given creative freedom. He should be allowed to test out new things to see how they impact the game for future possible improvements.
    /// /
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  13. #10
    Gym Leader AWA1997's Avatar
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    I’ve not played in GCEA before, so I have no experience with the old system, thus I feel my opinion should bear less weight than the others here. That being said, I will admit that leaving too much to the player is a bad idea, but if it’s two parties who need to figure something out, making it public helps, at least to get slightly different angles on the issue. On other sites Jan and I are on, I put her as my partner in running the RPs I make, and if we seem to hit a wall with our discussions on possible plot elements we’re not sure about or restrictions we need, I ask the rest of the group publicly.

    From the arguments I’ve seen, my first idea for a compromise is letting pokemon that are not available moving forward to become event rewards. For instance, the example with Shinx: after the first few routes, it is no longer available without backtracking, so it becomes eligible for being a random reward. However, if that is not a viable solution, I agree with the removal of said rule.

    Again, like I said, I don’t have any experience with the old system, so take my post with a grain of salt.

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