Speed's Pixel Cluster v2.0

[SassySnivy]

12 colors iirc. Also yes! It was inspired by that. I suppose to forgot to mention it because I was in such a rush. Plus I wanted to use these as an excuse to try to work with more dramatic shading and unusual light sources. :D ever since that Charmeleon

[Suicune's Fire]

Nice! O: 12 is a great number. You've really gotten me paying attention to colours. xD That's okay! 8D Ahaha, is it getting ADDICTIVE?!?!

[SassySnivy]

@monkeybard

I honestly wish I could say that this thing deserved such a long, well-thought and well-typed response as this. In all honesty I did rush a lot on the background and took little time to adjust things. But I'm going to respond to your critique because I sure as hell know that I'm going to be able to learn a lot from this as long as I reference back to it.

I've also not delved deeply into the art that is pixel art for a while, so I don't think I'm the most authoritative or knowledgeable person on this, but I'll give it a shot. As always when I talk about left/right it's in the perspective of the subject, and I hope what I write helps.

Being a good critic has less to do with how the critic can apply the techniques themselves and more to do with the critic understanding what's supposed to be what. I can't stand those people that ignore peoples' critiques if their art isn't that good. *CoughChristopherHartcough* There's nothing to worry about. :>

On first glance I think what strikes me as the most "off" about this piece is that Snivy's proportions and pose looks a little awkward. I feel like I can't say too much about this; the way you draw a Snivy is up to your interpretation. If I were to compare it to the official art sources and say that the head to body ratio is a lot more equal compared to a normal Snivy's pretty big head and small body, it would be incredibly unfair. Rather, I think the posture of Snivy is just a tad stiff and unnatural. The biggest contributor to this is probably the perfectly straight right arm, and I feel like the pose might look a little bit more balanced had you made the left arm straight as well (for a hugging the stomach kind of pose) or curved out the right arm like the left arm (which would have also upped the glee factor on Snivy's general body language as well!).

I suppose for the closest arm, I was going for some...slight foreshortening, perhaps. Looking back, though, I can understand how it looks too straight.
And about this Snivy's...rather strange body shape, check the shiny Snivy in my signature. It's a link to this character's reference; perhaps I should have been more specific about that. Just wanted to throw that out there, though! :>

For the posture as a whole I was going for the "arms sticking out, curved slightly upwards; body facing outwards a little bit" thing. A bit of an exaggerated pose for when an entity notices something behind them, and does so cutely. I'm hoping that makes a little sense.

Snivy's feet are rather tricky and I think for the most part I was making them in reference to the official artwork. But in this case, since Snivy's body is slightly at more of an angle...it does look odd, and it does look as if the two feet are on the same exact plane when they actually aren't. Feet positioning has always been a weakness of mine, so I definitely will pay more attention to that in the future.

I really, really, REALLY appreciate your feedback pertaining to the background. A lot of what you said kinda falls under a lot of what Elrond mentioned what with the lighting and creating more harmony and all, which has been addressed already. x] Well, not CHANGED addressed, but like, confronted. And while the background was sadly rushed. Looking back I'm not sure why I didn't take more time on it; I'm sure it was because I was just eager to get my URPG Pokemon and was focused less on actually making the piece as best as I could have made it.

you can just have a background with its basic colours in a neutral lighting environment paired with an object with its basic colours in a neutral lighting environment to obtain a picture akin to a photograph taken inside a white room with white lights or something. This is something like the way Pokemon sprites worked before Gen 6, where the sprites were shaded in a very neutral fashion and so were all the backgrounds, so they paired well together, and that's kind of how the blue sky and green grass work with the Snivy in this picture.

This totally sums up the kind of thing I did here. I am much more used to creating singular images that are meant to exist on their own without a background. I think maybe if I were to have taken a different process here, I could have prevented that. Here I treated the foreground and background as two different entities...which in itself isn't that bad, but I do want to try to take things a different way next time. It's clear that that technique didn't work for me, at least not this time.

I typically do a lot more dithering when it comes to highlights than when it comes to the darker shades. It's just...something I've done, I suppose. I honestly don't like to do both and instead do one or the other, else it might seem a little overdithered. And it always depends on the situation xD
I did want to use that as an emphasis, though. You tend to see scaly textures more prominently in areas closest to light, which is something that I exaggerated upon. I honestly see this more as a matter of stylistic choice, but as always your feedback is invaluable. <3
Looking back, extending the shading to fit the curve of the body definitely would have added more depth.

It's also a bit strange that Snivy is the only object that actually has highlights; the highlighting done on Joltik and the grass is a lot more subtle compared to the oomph factor that hue-shifting provides.

Not exactly. Joltik is so small that adding very prominent highlights would likely take away the readability (and readability is something that I totally messed up in its eyes, hah). Plus Joltik has a very fuzzy texture, so adding a highlight that's too prominent would make it appear glossy which would be really out of place.

Again I can't thank you enough for your critique. While there were a couple of things I didn't agree with...that just happens. With these pixel-overs I've been doing (the Charmeleon and Flygon) I've been trying to practice shading from different angles, so I think if you were to ever give some feedback on if I'm doing those right that would be super-helpful as well! But that's totally your call. ^^

This Gengar is still rather largely unfinished (still need to do some corrections if I can find any and lots of touch-ups), but in all honesty I'd really like to know if there are any big, glaring problems (or even smaller ones that take a slightly more trained eye to find) with how the shading works, here. Or anything else, really! My main focus with these is shading, though, since I definitely want to practice with more obscure light sources.

I wanted to make the light come from below, in front, and slightly off to the left in order to contribute to Gengar's menacing appearance.

[monkeybard]

Well, we're two different people after all, so it's expected that some of the impressions and opinions I have of your art will conflict with your own. I sometimes feel like offering critique can come off as "No, I'm more skilled than you, and if I were in charge than I would do this instead of that because this is clearly the better way to go about it", which would make me feel horrible if I do come off as such but I know that you're very receptive of my comments and that I can help you look at your art in slightly different manner that will help you improve in the future.

In regards to my spiel about the background, I recognised that Elrond pointed out a lot of the flaws in the harmony but I think the main thing I was trying to express were possible methods with which you can consider constructing your palettes in future pieces of the same scale.



I reckon you almost nailed it with the shading on this one! Using the shade of orange from the flame throughout all of Charmeleon was a great call and really brings the sprite together; especially the subtle specks of it you used to tint the belly in a sense. The only things I can see that could be improved on would mainly be the outlines. As it is, the shading is incredibly smooth and wonderful; which brings attention to how the outlines, while the linework is great, end up looking a little bit more jagged than perhaps intended. The contrast between the outlines and the colours is a bit higher than I would say the contrast is between each shade and how it's shaded, and I think smoothing out the outline with some aliasing, probably on the outer edge, would benefit the sprite. In addition to this, I've noted that you really stick to darker outlines in general, as opposed to say many of my sprites (like my recent WAR entry) where I quite happily put much lighter colours in the outlines. There's no better or worse to these methods, but the main thing to note here is the back of Charmeleon. By nature, a line of diagonal pixels simply appear to be thinner than a vertical and horizontal line of pixels. Rather than having a straight barrier between the shades and the white background, diagonal outlines allow a lot more of the background to influence how we interpret the shades and the outline colours, and the bottom line here is that the consistently dark outline you've used is subtly broken by the outline on the back of Charmeleon. I recognise that the colour used is the same as anywhere else, but if you simply look at it at 100% it gives off the impression that it's a bit lighter, which in turn creates expectations that this lighting effect on the outline would be present elsewhere on the sprite; and alas it is not. In addition to this, the single pixel where the back meets the tail feels the most noticeably 'jagged' or out-of-place, and while it seems to be there to give the tail a bit more of a curve, it would be better off perhaps a pixel longer or absent.

If there were any major hiccups with the shading, I would have to point out the stray yellow highlight on the offside of Charmeleon's belly. I recognise that there is a very subtle secondary light source which enriches the depth of the limbs and claws, but the yellow highlight on the belly does still look a bit out of place. I like that the red has a slight shift towards blue with the shadows, and it looks great with the yellower highlights (it's seriously a very good ramp for red) and that in turn makes the away-from-light zone of Charmeleon a bit of a no-go for more yellowey colours. On that note as well I feel like you could've been more adventurous with the shadows on the belly and shifting it towards green, which kind of goes against what I'm saying with the whole shadows =/= yellow thing but it's more about using colder colours away from the literally hot light source. There's nothing wrong with the palette as it is and cold browny colours obviously exist and are fine, but shifting in the other direction (in other words making it less red) and using a desaturated shade is another way you could've gone about it to put a little oomph and variety/balance in the palette.

The specks of red in the iris is a neat subtle addition, but the orange may have been excessive in the eye white. It's a cool effect, but it kind of makes the eye a little murkier than you perhaps might have intended. Unless it is intended, which in that case ignore this statement. I will personally add that using yellow to alias the eye would've been sufficient, and to add to this, I feel like putting a hint of a more saturated yellow on the light side of the claw would've also pushed the shading effect a little further, because as it is the claws are very standard. I also think the shading pattern was overdone a little on the claws; and it's more of a preference thing but I think using a darker shade on the other side of the 'main shadow line' of the claw would look a little better.

I don't have time for it right now, but I'll look at Flygon in more depth later if you want me to. I think the bottom line is that I find the palette of Flygon a tad drab, but I'll take another look.

The Gengar is coming along very nicely! Only real comments I have on the shading at the moment would be to make the right arm a little brighter possibly, and I think that the highlights above the edges of the mouth should be shadows instead, but that's dependant on what you're trying to communicate with that. On the pose and linework itself, I think the right leg could be moved a little further up along the right side of the body to make the pose a little bit more dynamic and I think the general shape would improve as well.

[SassySnivy]

Well, we're two different people after all, so it's expected that some of the impressions and opinions I have of your art will conflict with your own. I sometimes feel like offering critique can come off as "No, I'm more skilled than you, and if I were in charge than I would do this instead of that because this is clearly the better way to go about it", which would make me feel horrible if I do come off as such but I know that you're very receptive of my comments and that I can help you look at your art in slightly different manner that will help you improve in the future.

I personally don't feel like you're coming off that way, lol. Sure it takes a lot of gut to take criticism, and even then it's hard, but I don't think anyone that's well-seasoned in that kind of field would really take it that way; especially since you're not going off and being an *** about it. And if they do, then they probably weren't worth the time anyway, sadly. :P My only concern though is your huge run-on sentences. xD They do make things a little hard to keep up with. But I try.

while the linework is great, end up looking a little bit more jagged than perhaps intended. The contrast between the outlines and the colours is a bit higher than I would say the contrast is between each shade and how it's shaded, and I think smoothing out the outline with some aliasing, probably on the outer edge, would benefit the sprite. In addition to this, I've noted that you really stick to darker outlines in general, as opposed to say many of my sprites (like my recent WAR entry) where I quite happily put much lighter colours in the outlines. There's no better or worse to these methods, but the main thing to note here is the back of Charmeleon.

This is also a stylistic choice. Some prefer their outlines more prominent than others, but I can understand where you're coming from. I personally like to have depth, but I do also enjoy giving my art a slightly exaggerated, almost cartoony feel as well.
When you're making pixel art that is meant to stand individually and without a particular background, anti-aliasing on the outline is a big thing that you really don't want to do. Unless I misunderstood you there somewhere.
I really want to understand exactly what you were saying about the outlines, but I read it several times and I'm still having a lot of trouble understanding what exactly you're trying to refer to. Don't be afraid to include visual help, such as editing my original pixel-over. :> It helps a lot, and I really don't mind at all

For some reason I figured that the yellow on the chest would provide more backlight from the fire, but pretty sure you're right: it does look really out of place. I tried your suggestion on making the belly hue-shift towards green, and it did give it a little more depth because of the really subtle complimentary color scheme going on. Thanks!
I did get really carried away with the flicker in the eyes, hahahah. I fixed that and it looks a little better now. I think I understood what you meant about the claws.

I'm going to go ahead and post the edits I've made, so let me know if ended up understanding what you meant about the claws. :o



As for Flygon, it does lack a little oomph. I went and played with Flygon's colors a little bit more, and I do like how it stands out.



(Even a little sentence of advice can go a long way)

As for Gengar, I may have forgotten to mention that it was a pixel-over. Of the Global Link Art. As I said before, I'm making these both to customize my URPG stats AND to also practice on more dynamic shading without having to worry too much about structure and form. So while it isn't out of my control to change the leg, I simply prefer not to. But I do see where you were coming from and I do really appreciate the suggestion.



Gengar does still feel super-unfinished though and I'm having a lot of trouble putting my finger on why. I think there's too much blank space up at the top of the head but I honestly am not sure if there is anywhere else I can put shading / highlights with it still making sense. .-.

And I know that it might not seem like it but I really do appreciate the constructive feedback. It's very helpful! I also know how tiring it can be to give crits, so don't feel obliged to do it or anything. x] I'm sure you already are but feel free to just do it in your own time whenever it is that you feel like it. And like I briefly mentioned before, even a short few sentences can go a really long way. :D

I guess I just don't want you to feel pressured to write up these giant critiques just because of how grateful I am to get them.

[monkeybard]

I guess I just don't want you to feel pressured to write up these giant critiques just because of how grateful I am to get them.

I never actually intend for them to be so long, but because of my habit to run on with my sentences and because I apparently just have a lot to say, it happens naturally haha.

When you're making pixel art that is meant to stand individually and without a particular background, anti-aliasing on the outline is a big thing that you really don't want to do. Unless I misunderstood you there somewhere.

I suppose this comes from different preferences, purposes and intentions. Mainly because I've had a huge background working with the GBA generation Pokemon sprites I've gotten into the habit of colouring, lightening and AAing the outlines quite a bit. Sprites I've made in the past and sprites I've worked with are all usually presented on a white background, never to really be used for anything, so having a lot of straight black lines was never really something I did. I can see where you're coming from though, and you do make a good point. I don't think a lot of the sprites I've made before would look very good on a dark banner or anything.

In any case, the claws and the belly look even better now! I'm glad I helped with that. My comment on the claws is hard to explain better, but it was essentially a little bit too "metallically sharp" rather than "claw/cone sharp", and when you use that kind of shading/shaping effect on every claw they start to look a little out of place.

As for what I was trying to say about the outline, it's really not much worth mentioning but it is more prominent on a lighter background (such as here) than it would be if you looked at the sprite on the standard grey checkerboards that represent transparency. It's much more of an unintentional visual 'illusion' of sorts than it is a result of technique, but it boils down to the back's outline looking much lighter than say, the elbow or the tail (where you would expect it to be the lightest). Especially in regards to the tail and the back, where the same outline colour was used primarily, but it looks lighter on the back which breaks the consistency just enough that I decided it was worth picking at haha. The main reason it looks lighter is as I said, the line is visually thinner at the back because of its slope. As for regaining the consistency of the outline, I'd say to just experiment with darkening the outline on the back and maybe anti-aliasing a bit of the inside to pad it out and thicken it slightly, or maybe just lighten the outline on the elbow and the tail by a shade. There is also a very real possibility that I'm just seeing something no one else is, but it's worth mentioning to give you incentive to look at it a bit more. I would provide visual aid for it, but zooming in won't amount to much or help me make the point I'm trying to, it's really just something you notice when you look at the back on these forums and you compare it to the tail or the elbow.

Flygon's looking much spiffier, nice!

I feel like there's a lot more you could do with the Gengar as well, so I'll look at it more closely and report back in some time.

EDIT: Hey fancy that, mentions are actually pretty good at getting people to notice your edits... I think :o @Speed-X
I've been looking at Gengar a lot (and even consulted one of my art-y friends [not a pixel artist, just a person that draws really good]) and the more I looked at it the more Gengar looked complete. I don't think anything really has to be done to it as it's pretty much great the way it is. At first glance it seems, as you said, "super unfinished", and I'm not sure if it's because I couldn't think of alternatives but at this point I feel like it is just about as finished as it gets. Filling the space on the head or simply wanting to add more to it is just a matter of either adding another darker shade or introducing another light source from the top front left, which isn't as much of a solution as it is an alternative.

An interesting lighting situation I could think of might be a cold, icy blue light (a ghostly will-o-wispy blue fire kind of situation) from the bottom front left with a dimmer neutral light from the top front left, but you did have a specific light source in mind while shading this so I say just leave it the way it is and play with the light sources again on another pixel over.

[SassySnivy]

Thanks, Luis! Okay, so I did actually toy with Gengar's light a bit because yeah, it would look cool if the light source were cooler like a wisp or something. I think it turned out very interestingly but at the same time I'm not certain on how I feel about it. Ah well.

I started on Feraligatr (I'm planning on making the light source be orange-ish, like a sunset, and to be coming from the right side while vertically in the middle), but I got distracted because I really like Luis' attempt at doing one of those HD sprites of Rhydon. I figured it would be fun, trying to HD a style that's long-outdated.

I'm also starting to see what you mean about diagonal lines seeming thinner. Especially after making these two guys:


Yellow Nidorino was a bit of a pain. There's just SO MUCH ANTI-ALIASING and noise on the Yellow sprites that I had to do a little guesswork as to what was supposed to be what.

And that external AA'ing that I always go on about does exist here in order to imitate the style better, before anyone says anything. ;p

[Suicune's Fire]

I think the gengar palette shift to a cool lighter shade really worked. It looks less empty now, somehow. xD

Ugh, that anti-aliasing... Just...doesn't look good. XD They were n00bs at spriting back then, though, so we can forgive them. I love the nido renditions. It's funny how far across that nidorina's (our) left leg is. xD Looks like it's disconnected, almost. (Which I'm saying is the original sprite's fault, btw.)

[monkeybard]

They both look great! There's a lot less to comment on when you sprite off a reference haha. My only gripe with Red!Nidorino is that the eyes seem to have lost a bit of ferocity compared to the original, but that's no big deal. I think the slight curve upwards should be more of a slight curve downwards, because that's what the original suggests at a glance.

And you're totally right about Nidorino's Yellow sprite. It definitely could've used a lighter shade for the shadow to make the details less obscure, but you've done a good job of making the palette work in your favour! The heavy antialiasing and disconnecting lines only really worked with the gray palette to be honest.

Also I'd prefer to be called Darren, but if you're more at home calling me Luis (because I unfortunately did this to myself as a child) then I guess that's fine! :D

[SassySnivy]

Thanks guys! Hahah, sorry, I hope you don't mind. xD I prefer to call you Luis, but I mean if it really starts to bug you just let me know. I guess it's just kinda stuck with me. x]

Also, I kinda saw what you meant about Nidorino (Green, btw, not Red/Blue ;3 ), and made a couple of changes. The Sandslash was made the day before I left for Florida. Also I AM working on judging those critiques I swear xD