pulse shooting in orlando, FL

[Noblejanobii]

And yeah on the actual issue, it's pretty bad that a guy who was on the FBI watch list for a time was able to get a job as a security guard AND access to weapons. Like the least they could do is not allow people suspected of sympathising with terrorists access to a gun FOR HIS JOB! ~_~

Yeah I don't understand how that just slipped through the cracks. It really concerns me, but then again doesn't surprise me given out government.

You can blame what happened on terrorism, on intolerance for other sexualities, or ISIS or whatever. They are huge issues and they all contributed. But the whole world has those same problems. In the Western world, it's only in the US that mass shootings happen again and again and again. It's a gun control issue and as long as people want to fight for their right to have guns and blame the problem on everything else under the sun, it will just keep happening over and over. If the mass shooting of children didn't change the way the lawmakers view things, nothing will, especially not shooting up a gay nightclub.

To an outsider like me, the whole gun thing seems ridiculous. Seeing anyone with a gun in public (which means a police officer, here), makes me uneasy just because I don't like the idea that they can take my life in a split second if they decide to, from far away, for no reason or for any reason they want. I would never ever feel safe knowing that civilians could carry weapons around. You lock your doors at night because you don't trust your neighbour not to rob you. So why would you trust them with a weapon that can take your life in an instant without you even knowing they were there? Think of all the complete imbeciles you know. Think of all the jerks and horrible people. Are you glad they can own guns? I would gladly give up my gun if it meant no one else had one. I can't even begin to understand it, but I do understand it's a part of US culture that some people feel strongly about, and therefore not something likely to change. :(

And yes I realise black market etc., if people really want one they will get one etc., and that it all seems impossible to change how things are. But other countries have managed it. And countries with strict gun control have way less issues so it must work enough to be worthwhile, even if it only stops half the shootings. It won't happen though, because the pro-gun people pay politicians to prevent it.

I'll fight for the issue until my dying breath because if there's anything I've learned in my time of politics, it's that you can't just take away something from everybody in this country and expect it to solve all problems.

Oh I don't lock my doors because I don't trust my neighbors to rob me. I lock my doors because I don't trust Joshmo who I don't know who saw me in the grocery store twenty minutes to follow me home, break in and rape me. I trust my neighbors (except the ones currently next door but to be fair I'm pretty sure they're drug dealers and they're moving out soon so no worries with them), but it's the people that I don't know that I don't trust. And I want a gun to make sure that if Joshmo does decide to come to my house and rape me, then he will be sure to regret it and I will make sure he either doesn't get another chance to rape someone, or thinks twice before he does. That's the world I have grown up in, the world I face everyday when I wake up, and the world that I cannot escape no matter what solution is thrown at it.

Yeah, key words "other countries". You ever noticed how the USA is different than everyone else? That applies here too. You see, it's not part of our culture, it's part of our founding. It is part of the Bill of Rights on the Constitution, and to date, only one Amendment on the Constitution has ever been repealed. Fun fact, it was the one that outlawed alcohol. As a person who has studied the amendment process, I can assure you, the Founders made it very difficult to pass an Amendment, and the only way to override an Amendment is with another Amendment. And say someone just passes a law anyway because screw the Constitution, it's not important or anything, that's what our judicial system is for. And while I understand that PACs like the NRA are paying politicians to prevent an Amendment from ever being passed, let alone presented, you have to stop and take a step back, because it's not entirely the politicians' fault, so you can't really blame them. They're merely responding to the voters, after all, they are elected to represent us, and they'll do just about anything to continue to do so. Given resent events, I can guarantee you that the Congress coming out this November will most likely be a democratic majority. Why? Because democrats are all about getting those guns pulled, and the majority in Congress right now loves their guns. So lets say Hillary Clinton gets in office and we have a democratic majority in Congress. Well, Hillary's useless because she has no influence on this process as the President, so it bubbles down to Congress. So, hypothetically speaking, lets say that Congress somehow gets this repeal the second amendment Amendment passed through Congress, then it has to go through the states, and I'll bet my college funds and life's savings, it would not pass through the states. There's too many that love their guns to ever allow such an Amendment to get passed. On top of that, say this Amendment actually does get passed, do you know what happened during Prohibition. The exact opposite intended effect. More people drank rather than less, because it was cool and rebellious. Well guess what? We're almost to the 100 year anniversary of the roaring 20s, who's to say they don't outlaw guns and then we just get a repeat only worse. In addition, you ever noticed how people respond to the police here? We aren't exactly huge fans of them. In other countries, the police scare you or you respect them. Not here, we don't do either. So if this was even tried to be enforced, there would be riots out the hoo ha all over this country. If anything, this would lead to anarchy and the country as a whole would collapse because gun rights is one of the 10 basic beliefs that makes up our foundation, and do you know what happens to a house that loses part of its foundation? It collapses. In short, your solution won't work here because the USA doesn't fit in the same size band-aids as Australia, or many other countries for that matter, so trying to plaster another country's solution on us will not work.

[Rival Max]

You obviously aren't aware the man didn't just carry in an AR, he also had and used a glock. So he did walk in there with a hand gun and it wasn't just one gun that killed 49, it was two. Therefore, the potential still stands.

You are talking about 49 peoples lives. Potentially less killing is something every single person should be looking towards. Not the rights of gun nuts.the right to bare arms was based on life in the 1700s...it can not apply fully to a modern country.

[Pokemon Trainer Sarah]

Oh I don't lock my doors because I don't trust my neighbors to rob me. I lock my doors because I don't trust Joshmo who I don't know who saw me in the grocery store twenty minutes to follow me home, break in and rape me. I trust my neighbors (except the ones currently next door but to be fair I'm pretty sure they're drug dealers and they're moving out soon so no worries with them), but it's the people that I don't know that I don't trust. And I want a gun to make sure that if Joshmo does decide to come to my house and rape me, then he will be sure to regret it and I will make sure he either doesn't get another chance to rape someone, or thinks twice before he does. That's the world I have grown up in, the world I face everyday when I wake up, and the world that I cannot escape no matter what solution is thrown at it.

But Joshmo has a gun, what if he shoots you first? xD That's exactly what I meant. I meant neighbours as in everyone around you, not just your literal neighbours that you might actually trust.

Yeah, key words "other countries". You ever noticed how the USA is different than everyone else? That applies here too. You see, it's not part of our culture, it's part of our founding. It is part of the Bill of Rights on the Constitution, and to date, only one Amendment on the Constitution has ever been repealed. Fun fact, it was the one that outlawed alcohol. As a person who has studied the amendment process, I can assure you, the Founders made it very difficult to pass an Amendment, and the only way to override an Amendment is with another Amendment. And say someone just passes a law anyway because screw the Constitution, it's not important or anything, that's what our judicial system is for. And while I understand that PACs like the NRA are paying politicians to prevent an Amendment from ever being passed, let alone presented, you have to stop and take a step back, because it's not entirely the politicians' fault, so you can't really blame them. They're merely responding to the voters, after all, they are elected to represent us, and they'll do just about anything to continue to do so. Given resent events, I can guarantee you that the Congress coming out this November will most likely be a democratic majority. Why? Because democrats are all about getting those guns pulled, and the majority in Congress right now loves their guns. So lets say Hillary Clinton gets in office and we have a democratic majority in Congress. Well, Hillary's useless because she has no influence on this process as the President, so it bubbles down to Congress. So, hypothetically speaking, lets say that Congress somehow gets this repeal the second amendment Amendment passed through Congress, then it has to go through the states, and I'll bet my college funds and life's savings, it would not pass through the states. There's too many that love their guns to ever allow such an Amendment to get passed. On top of that, say this Amendment actually does get passed, do you know what happened during Prohibition. The exact opposite intended effect. More people drank rather than less, because it was cool and rebellious. Well guess what? We're almost to the 100 year anniversary of the roaring 20s, who's to say they don't outlaw guns and then we just get a repeat only worse. In addition, you ever noticed how people respond to the police here? We aren't exactly huge fans of them. In other countries, the police scare you or you respect them. Not here, we don't do either. So if this was even tried to be enforced, there would be riots out the hoo ha all over this country. If anything, this would lead to anarchy and the country as a whole would collapse because gun rights is one of the 10 basic beliefs that makes up our foundation, and do you know what happens to a house that loses part of its foundation? It collapses. In short, your solution won't work here because the USA doesn't fit in the same size band-aids as Australia, or many other countries for that matter, so trying to plaster another country's solution on us will not work.

I'm sure it is a very complex issue because of American history or whatever, and there is obviously no easy solution or they would have done it. I'm just saying until something is done about gun control, this will just keep happening, sadly. :( I don't see why it can't be something like this:

You want a gun, so you apply and they do a background check. If there are ANY red flags (mental health, extremist views, criminal history), you are denied. If you're approved, you go to a gun range and have a mandatory few lessons and receive a gun license. Once you have the license, you are allowed to purchase a gun from a limited range that are suitable for the purpose (self defense, shooting feral animals, whatever). There is a month waiting period before you can pick up your gun.

I don't see how that doesn't solve a whole heap of problems... Everyone sane can still get their gun, but no one can go buy a gun because they're angry right now and want to shoot up some place tomorrow. No one can buy a gun if they have previous criminal history, links to terrorism, questionable mental health etc. Everyone who gets to buy a gun has a license and is trained in how to use it properly. Each gun would be registered to someone, so if a crime is committed, they can see who owns the gun. You need a license to drive a car, so I don't see why you don't need one for a gun. =\ I mean I know this is like one of those arguments that I can never win because it's so ingrained in US culture, so I don't know why I bother. XD But ah well.

[HKim]

@Pokemon Trainer Sarah

Gotta disagree with you there. Guns are great equalizers in the world.

You're right, there are plenty of crazy people in the world. And yeah, I don't trust them. But I'm a small person and if someone tries to break into my house, that stranger probably has several inches and pounds on me. I don't think I'd give myself good odds of coming out on top.

But a gun changes things. If I have a gun and the perpetrator doesn't, I have the advantage. If we both have a gun, it's 50/50, more or less. And 50 percent is still a whole lot better for me than if we were both unarmed.

[Pokemon Trainer Sarah]

@Pokemon Trainer Sarah

Gotta disagree with you there. Guns are great equalizers in the world.

You're right, there are plenty of crazy people in the world. And yeah, I don't trust them. But I'm a small person and if someone tries to break into my house, that stranger probably has several inches and pounds on me. I don't think I'd give myself good odds of coming out on top.

But a gun changes things. If I have a gun and the perpetrator doesn't, I have the advantage. If we both have a gun, it's 50/50, more or less. And 50 percent is still a whole lot better for me than if we were both unarmed.

If I had to live in fear of someone breaking into my house like that, so much so that I would feel I needed to own a gun to defend myself, I would not stay sane. So I don't know how you guys do it. If that's what it's really like over there, then I can see why so many people want to own guns, I guess. =/

[Corey]

As someone who is far too lazy to read these ginormous gun control posts (which isn't the main issue at hand, really, and because I've heard them and debated against them all already), the only thing I'll say about guns is that I'm 100% completely and adamantly against them. I genuinely don't feel safe in a country where guns widely available. I think about it and worry about being shot quite frequently. And as a gay man, this makes me more secure in my beliefs about guns. Guns allow one to hold someone else's LIFE in their hands. And because I'm gay, I face a risk of losing my life because some bible-thumping holy roller gets pissed at something as petty as two guys kissing. But unfortunately, guns just won't poof away, so they should be HEAVILY regulated. Otherwise, this'll just keep happening, like it always has in America. Mass shooting after mass shooting. I frankly don't understand how people don't see the problem is guns. We're the only nation where this happens. And it's because guns aren't at all regulated like they should be. The blame does fall on the guns, and there's no doubt in my mind that guns are absolutely the problem.

Honestly, though, I don't think this thread is for gun control discussion. Not only was that not the topic of the thread, but it's disgraceful and disrespectful to the victims. Guns did play a part in this, but the main issue is bigotry against the LGBT+ community (not to imply that I feel the gun issue is not a pressing matter). And I'm honestly offended that this thread took a horrid turn from the issue of LGBT+ hate to a cantankerous, obstinate argument about guns. Forty-nine innocent people lost their lives, and fifty-three others were injured. This act of terrorism is the largest on U.S. soil since 9/11.

EDIT: And I'll go ahead and say now that I absolutely will not argue with any of you about guns, especially not in this thread. If you post criticizing my beliefs about guns, I won't reply to it. There's no use, and this is not the place.

Back on the real issue at hand, this is disgusting. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is more repugnant and nauseating than a closed-minded individual. This makes me utterly furious. All we're doing after mass shootings is stepping up on a platform and sorrowfully speaking in support of the families of the victims. But that's not enough. Nothing is getting done. And it keeps happening. I've always been appalled and disgusted with mass shootings, but this one really, really hits home for me. However, this abominable mass shooting should not scare anyone from coming out of the closet, and it shouldn't make someone think that they need to go back into the closet. No, that's not what pride is about! Pride is about empowerment for a community that has long suffered oppression and hate. Pride is necessary, and is so beneficial to the LGBT+ community, and so beneficial to those struggling with their sexuality and for those who fear coming out. The greatest activism is living an out life. Not living in fear is a form of activism. It's time to be as gay as possible.

[Chakramaster]

@chak your response is basically saying why bother. Yes there are alot of guns out there and how to fix that is for much smarter men then myself. However i can say making laws that ban these heavy duty weapons gets some of them off the street. There is no reason a person in this country needs a weapon of that size.

It doesn't say that at all. Otherwise I would've just said "why bother?" Yeah things need to be done, but the way most people just openly propose won't do anything, but to make things worse than they already are. So tell me. How did this guy aquire his weapon. Did he suddenly decide to walk into a store, but these guns, load up, and go on the shooting spree? Is this the known fact that has been proven? Again, banning weapons will NOT solve any issue. Evil people will NOT stop someone evil from comitting evil such as this. Ban or no ban. Evil people don't care about your laws or bans. They will carry them and use them regardless

[HKim]

@Corey

I do agree gun control isn't the main issue, but I'm not sure it's a LGBT issue either. It seems like a lot of news articles coming out say that the shooter frequented the club, participated in activities there, and was on a few gay dating services. Although it may be too early to draw conclusions at this point, the shooter could have been a homosexual himself.

It might be that, in the process of converting to Islamic extremism, he picked a target that he knew well enough to navigate through and one that had a large number of people in a small confined area. He worked for a security company, so he probably knew a lot of procedures necessary to secure a location and that might have led him to choose this particular target.

The main issue, in my opinion, is terrorism at this point. We're dealing with extremist enemies that desire to kill as many people as possible, regardless of whether they're military or civilians. This should encourage us to increase our vigilance as a nation.

[Noblejanobii]

All right I'm done talking about this. I've stated repeatedly what my stance is and the proof behind it. Nothing you can say, do, or present will change my opinion on it, so quit trying.

This thread has turned this forum into a war zone and we just need to stop this now. I understand that I had a role instigating this but it's gone too far. We're arguing like children when we all know none of us our going to change our opinions on anything. I respect the people who presented their arguments in a civil manner on the serious topic and praise you for sharing it no matter what strife it may have brought, but now it's time to stop.

And even if you don't stop, just leave me out of it. You cannot convince me to change my mind. I've seen too much of this sort of thing for this to change my stance on anything. Take that as you will and leave me out of this.

Though I will leave off with this. Where I live, there's a great phrase that has stuck with me since I first heard it, "Peace isn't some dove carrying an olive branch, it's everyone pointing a gun to each others' heads to make sure someone doesn't slip up."

[Rival Max]

@Corey

I do agree gun control isn't the main issue, but I'm not sure it's a LGBT issue either. It seems like a lot of news articles coming out say that the shooter frequented the club, participated in activities there, and was on a few gay dating services. Although it may be too early to draw conclusions at this point, the shooter could have been a homosexual himself.

It might be that, in the process of converting to Islamic extremism, he picked a target that he knew well enough to navigate through and one that had a large number of people in a small confined area. He worked for a security company, so he probably knew a lot of procedures necessary to secure a location and that might have led him to choose this particular target.

The main issue, in my opinion, is terrorism at this point. We're dealing with extremist enemies that desire to kill as many people as possible, regardless of whether they're military or civilians. This should encourage us to increase our vigilance as a nation.

I disagree with the last part. This is not an terrorist. The guy had no connection to isis. Weather he bought into what he read online is nother matter. This is about a society that has openly fought the rights of the LGBT community and allowed people this kind of hate to grow. The guy was a nut job. He was able to get a gun and he took out his act of hate. Lets not go giving our own Christian extremist more reasons to attack Muslim shop owners.